| Pages:
1
2 |
Cloner
Hazard to Others
Posts: 150
Registered: 7-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: apocalyptic
|
|
microwave modifications
In order to practise chemistry in a microwave, one can either buy a cheapo microwave, drill a hole in it and build the experimental setup in it. Or
buy a scientific MW instrument which has a price that has two digits more than reasonable.
I would try the first approach, that is buy a microwave, make a hole in the top and put a refluxer in it, and a stirrer below. The thing I find
disturbing is the 'electrosmog'. Probably the machines are all shielded to compliance of certain strict norms, but not anymore when you tamper with
it. Did anyone who uses microwaves measure electrosmog or whatever you can call it, that appears out of customized microwaves?
|
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
Without mentioning adding some kind of shielding to block the microwaves from coming out and making your head explode and your eyeballs popping? Nor
any mention of a microwave leakage testor to insure safety? Stupid, irresponsible ideas are not what people need!
|
|
|
Twospoons
International Hazard
Posts: 1280
Registered: 26-7-2004
Location: Middle Earth
Member Is Offline
Mood: A trace of hope...
|
|
This is the sort of scenario where one needs to build the electrical equivalent of a fume hood : which is a Faraday cage.
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
|
|
|
neutrino
International Hazard
Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: oscillating
|
|
Stray microwaves are indeed very dangerous. They can destroy your eyes, leaving you blind. Assuming you're a male, you will go sterile. There's other
stuff I can't recall right now, but the bottom line is that you really need some kind of shielding.
|
|
|
Thomas Winwood
Harmless
Posts: 43
Registered: 16-12-2004
Location: United Kingdom of Great Boredom
Member Is Offline
Mood: Anhydrous
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by neutrino
Assuming you're a male, you will go sterile. |
Not to dissipate the seriousness of the suggestions made, but surely it's not a dead cert that you'll go sterile? If it were THAT awful then they'd
never licence them for use in home kitchens!
I\'ve been told having a sig is banned, despite the facility being available. Um...contradiction?
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
They'll make you go sterile if you let it MICROWAVE YOUR TESTICLES. Likely, you would notice the intense burning sensation before you suffer
permanent damage.
There's nothing boogeymonsterish about microwaves, damn they're just slow infrared, they tend to make things heat up and that's about it!
The eyeballs are a concern because they may heat up (from the rays) before you realize they're cooked. Good way to get cataracts/glaucoma (I forget
which), or worse.
Tim
|
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
"If it were THAT awful then they'd never licence them for use in home kitchens!"
They DON'T license the models with open unshielded holes in the top!
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
I don't quite understand the problem.
All you need to do is to shield the apparatus with and the whole with a mesh that is also used in the door. That mesh's hole width is around the
diameter of the microwave wavelength, hence it's absorbed. That's why glass, and that mess is sufficient for shielding.
Shouldnt be too hard to set this up properly.
I see more of a problem to make a hole through the middle, because that's where the magnetron is located, right - which'll obviously be in the way.
Other than that... of course a remote switch is always good, i.e. you can turn it on and off from a distance.
While in operation, the greater the distance, the better, of course.
You could always protect yourself behind such a mesh yourself (i.e. like a portable shield), while the magnetron is on.
I honestly don't see as much the problem, as long as you keep a good distance during operation, and a good shield made of metal mesh.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
chromium
Hazard to Others
Posts: 284
Registered: 27-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: reactive
|
|
I too have told that microwaves are very dangerous so do it outside and use remote switch. You probably can drill hole somewhere. Tube with 14/23
joints in both ends that goes through hole should let you connect liebig condenser with small flask that is located inside microvawe. You can use bent
tube so that some shielding can be put over the hole.
[Edited on 7-12-2005 by chromium]
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
Don't forget to ground the shielding continuously around all edges.
Holes can be, at most, maybe a half wavelength. (I forget what a good number is, and it depends on attenuation and distance. With electronics,
signals aren't *blocked*, they get attenuated a number of decibels (a log scale), and in engineering a system, you have to decide how much attenuation
counts as "blocked")
2.45GHz is almost 1cm long.
Tim
|
|
|
chloric1
International Hazard
Posts: 1070
Registered: 8-10-2003
Location: GroupVII of the periodic table
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stoichiometrically Balanced
|
|
modifications
I am going from memory here but if you where to drill a 1cm hole I think a 6 inch long copper tube leading out of the hole would provide adequate
sheilding. I believe this from Chemical Abstracts or the like.
Fellow molecular manipulator
|
|
|
Twospoons
International Hazard
Posts: 1280
Registered: 26-7-2004
Location: Middle Earth
Member Is Offline
Mood: A trace of hope...
|
|
Wavelength is 12cm at 2.45 GHz. And for significant attentuation the holes need to be less than 1/20 of the wavelength, or under 5mm in this case.
Slots count as holes as large as the length of the slot.
[Edited on 7-12-2005 by Twospoons]
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
|
|
|
Chris The Great
Hazard to Others
Posts: 463
Registered: 29-10-2004
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I've noticed microwaves travel through metal objects inserted into holes even if microwaves don't normally do so. I drilled a hole into a microwave,
no microwaves came through, I stuck a screwdriver in the hole and suddenly my hand got pretty warm.
The dangers of magnetrons are real but greatly exagerrated. I've run magnetrons in the open, lit up fluorescent tubes in the open, warmed my hands
etc. The radiation spreads out so rapidly that holding your hand just a few inches in front of a 1000 watt magnetron only makes it feel like it is in
a hot tub.
It is a very interesting feeling because your entire hand is warmed, not just the surface.
However, going blind is a possibility so you do have to be careful. Also, since it probably jams every wireless signal in a good distance, be
considerate to your neighbours etc.
|
|
|
bio2
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 15-1-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
.....The dangers of magnetrons are real but greatly exagerrated. ........
Do not try this at home!
An interesting story from the early days of microwave ovens which were developed by Amana from radar technology.
To allay the safety fears of the company bosses who were trying to decide if this new product (microwave oven) would be released a japanese engineer
put his head into the micro oven for a few moments. Apparently he lived a long life thereafter with no untoward after effects.
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Chris The Great
I've noticed microwaves travel through metal objects inserted into holes even if microwaves don't normally do so. I drilled a hole into a microwave,
no microwaves came through, I stuck a screwdriver in the hole and suddenly my hand got pretty warm. |
Interesting experiment 
Does illustrate coupling pretty nicely though. You have to bypass, ground and bond everything as good as possible! A rod floating in a hole like
that will act as an antenna inside and out, coupling things quite nicely. In fact, if it's exactly a half wavelength long (I think), it will act as a
dipole, live on both ends and, for all intents and purposes, null in the center, right where it passes the chassis -- hard to ground a voltage that
isn't there! Remember to avoid situations like these.
Edit: yes thanks I missed a factor of ten... 3 x 10^8 m/s / 2.45GHz is indeed 12cm = 4 3/4 inches.
Tim
[Edited on 12-7-2005 by 12AX7]
|
|
|
Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Leaky microwave ovens can cause cateracts without a doubt and as chris found out imprfect shields, badly grounded bits of metal or sticky outy bits
can resonate, or retransmit radiation. Its a messy subject and I'd question why anyone would want to go into it for chemistry. ITs *just* a heat
source, make a heating mantle and things are much safer.
|
|
|
kABOOM!
Harmless
Posts: 40
Registered: 19-12-2005
Location: Pacific side of Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I've seen microwave ovens - running 1kW magnetrons do some nasty damage to objects several meters away. I remember a few years ago a Comm- Tower had
one of its horns point at a housing complex for 4 days after a large storm knock down the horn. I have no clue as to how much energy is in one of
those tower horns but all I can tell you is that the entire subdivision suffered.
1. Sleep disruptions**
2. Locallised heating of certian areas of homes- very spiratic
3. Constant malfunctions with sensitive electronic equipment
4. Data storage divices suddenly erased- VHS/audio tapes were the problem media here.
5. Incandecent light bulbs/ tube light fixtures would glow after switch cut power to circuits
6. fine metal objects would emit sound- buzzing. Some claimed to hear the radio coming from filiments in their toasters!
So far no lasting effects have been reported.
play safe, play hard...get your lumps...pick yourself up and try again. It will only make you stronger.
|
|
|
bullstrode
Harmless
Posts: 11
Registered: 24-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As chloric1 says, you need to solder a length of metal tubing to the hole. This will act as a waveguide, reflecting the microwaves back in to the
oven. The tube must be soldered all the way around - any gap will act as a slot, radiating microwaves.
In this case, the tube diameter is much smaller than the microwave wavelength, so the attenuation in dB is proportional to length/diameter of tube.
With diameter of 20 mm and length of 80 mm, gives you around 120 dB of attenuation.
|
|
|
fizzy
Harmless
Posts: 9
Registered: 10-3-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: bubbling
|
|
You might be able to use the signal strength indicator on a WiFi equiped laptop as a measure of leakage.
I know you can see the leakage from a 10 year old microwave in the following way. My satellite receiver is in an upstairs room. In order to get a
cable to the kitchen I would have needed to drill through a couple of brick walls. Instead I purchased a video transmitter/receiver pair from Radio
Shack. These operate at the same frequency as microwave magnetrons. When the microwave is operating in the kitchen you can see the interference on
the TV in the kitchen. It is possible to make qualitative judgements about the level of the interference from the picture distortion. So just
measure the amount of interference before you drill a hole in the microwave and then when you have finished your modifications, play with the
shielding until you get the interference level back down to something like what it was at the beginning.
|
|
|
Marvin
National Hazard
Posts: 995
Registered: 13-10-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
bullstrode, that wouldnt be a waveguide and may just start oscillating lengthwise ala magnetron coupling.
fizzy, err, not reliable and you can actually buy microwave leek testers, so I dont see the point.
|
|
|
bullstrode
Harmless
Posts: 11
Registered: 24-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Of course it is a waveguide.
|
|
|
chochu3
Hazard to Others
Posts: 185
Registered: 21-10-2003
Location: South Side Tejas [Cloverland]
Member Is Offline
Mood: Inside looking out
|
|
If one could find a microwave with a long base, it could be set up on its side so it is enlogated vertically. Your apparatus would also need to have
the right length to fit.
\"Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise and learned, fools go aimlessly hither and thither, like blind led by the blind.\" -
Katha Upanishad
|
|
|
Esplosivo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 491
Registered: 7-2-2004
Location: Mediterranean
Member Is Offline
Mood: Quantized
|
|
I had an idea and I would like to know from some of you guys, who surely know a lot more than I do regarding microwaves, if it is feasable.
What I had in mind is to simply place the apparatus inside the microwave chamber (i.e. the place where one usually places the food, just to make sure
we're on the same wavelength here  ) and drill small holes of a diameter of 1mm
each in a small area on the posterior wall of the microwave oven chamber. The apparatus 'piping' would be led to the region where these holes are and
the pipe, for example glass, which has a diameter greater than the area covered by the collection of the holes made is bonded to the wall by some
strong inert binder (although I know that 'inert' does depend on the solvents being used in the rxn etc...). Opposite to this region of holes is
bonded another glass tube, in the same manner, so that this other tube is connected to the inner tube by means of the holes, but separated from it by
the wall with small holes which serves as a shielding (but at the same time allows movement of chemicals in and out). Attached is a rough sketch of
what is explained above (freehand, so please be kind).
Obviously, if this could work, I guess that a number of these 'connections' could be made so as to allow as number of inflow and outflow tubes in and
out of the microwave oven, without running the risk of 'microwave-leakage' which I would very much like to avoid at all costs. Any comments,
suggestions, critiques, et cetera are more than welcome.
Theory guides, experiment decides.
|
|
|
Twospoons
International Hazard
Posts: 1280
Registered: 26-7-2004
Location: Middle Earth
Member Is Offline
Mood: A trace of hope...
|
|
yes it should work. Its really just an extension of the ventillation fan system thats already in your standard microwave oven. If you are really
paranoid, a matching perforated graphite plate could be used on the outside of the 1mm holes, as an additional absorber.
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
|
|
|
bullstrode
Harmless
Posts: 11
Registered: 24-12-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I think it was organikum who posted details for modifying a microwave to accept a distillation column; I don't remember where - maybe it was on the
Hive. You can Google stuff for this. There is lots of info around on using attenuating waveguide ports for Faraday cages as well as microwaves.
The graphite plate might need to be quite thick due to the skin depth - it isn't necessary for mm sized holes anyway. Even a cm sized hole wouldn't
leak that much.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
