Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3
Author: Subject: Tannerite
Hennig Brand
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1278
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 18-2-2016 at 14:51


The old fashioned Kieselgur (diatomaceous earth) dynamite was 75% NG and 25% DE and it could be freely burned too apparently. Pure NG could be burned as well, but if it was heated or burned with much confinement, boom...if I recall correctly. Sobrero apparently heated a couple drops in an open test tube and the detonation sent glass fragments into his face which were still surfacing months later.

Normally diluting an energetic material makes it less sensitive. Suitable desensitizers can do a lot even in small quantities. I know the plastic binder in C-4 makes it much less sensitive to impact, and it would sure restrict flame propagation as well. Also if the 9% is all extra fuel, that in itself could definitely effect/reduce the rate and intensity of combustion. Yeah, as energetics go, RDX and TNT both seem to be fairly safe materials to burn. ETN and NC, on the other hand, not so much. I think pure RDX can be made to deflagrate, with some localized heating and some confinement, but I don't know enough about it to quantify the risk really. I assume it is fairly low.




"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Hennig Brand
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1278
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 19-2-2016 at 08:50


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Drop hammer, friction shoe, Lead block test... Not published for Tannerite, AFAIK. It shoots at a very low velocity, but is also more sensitive to impact than any military or most commercial explosives I know of.

Go do some tests? Science!


Bert, that should keep someone, or more than one someone, out of trouble for a while! ;)

It's pretty funny actually when one stops to think a little more. I actually just started thinking about it a little and realized what a messy problem it is. There are so many variables affecting sensitivity, and compared to a molecular explosive with known purity, etc, it just isn't a very refined and consistent product either (especially the homemade stuff probably). Particle size, particle shape, particle density, bulk density, moisture content, temperature, composition, sensitizers, etc, etc, etc. It just isn't as critical either! I think I would be happy with knowing what few variables must be kept in what general range to keep the targets bullet sensitive, which I think is what is mostly done in practice.




"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 1902
Registered: 12-3-2004
Location: Blasted Hellish frozen Northern wastelands
Member Is Offline

Mood: Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

[*] posted on 21-2-2016 at 13:30


Quote: Originally posted by Detonationology  
C-4 is 91% RDX... It couldn't possible be that much different than pure RDX.


The DOT disagrees strongly with you on that opinion. While the material worked up as a plastic explosive, PBX or other similarly diluted product is shippable when properly marked, placarded & etc., the dry, powdered pure chemical is forbidden in transport. It may be transported in bulk on public roads only if wetted with a specified % of water (15% by mass).

Similar rules apply for bulk HMX and PETN. The DOT doesn't pull these rules out of their ass, they write them up after performing some testing. Usually that testing and rule development comes AFTER a major incident and loss...

[Edited on 21-2-2016 by Bert]




Boom.
The explosion removed the windows, the door and most of the chimney.
It was the sort of thing you expected in the Street of alchemists. The neighbors preferred explosions, which were at least identifiable and soon over. They were better than the smells, which crept up on you.
-Terry Pratchett, "Moving Pictures"
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 225
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 21-2-2016 at 19:14


Good point Bert!

Kind of random... but I have found that about 5% Ethelyne Glycol complements tannerite quite well. Because at 2-5% aluminum it is not close to OB. Lets be honest... who wants to use 15% aluminum powder to make it OB?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 1902
Registered: 12-3-2004
Location: Blasted Hellish frozen Northern wastelands
Member Is Offline

Mood: Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

[*] posted on 23-2-2016 at 09:32


Prilled ammonium nitrate mixed with cheap Walmart ethylene glycol antifreeze and a bit of Potassium chlorate is a far cheaper bullet sensitive target mixture than Tannerite, or home made ammonal mixtures using expensive pyro grade Aluminum... See the boomershoot.org site for full details of the mixtures development.

Joe Huffman and friends use multiple TONS of this mix, as long as you don't store it, it seems quite well mannered. There have been several incidents of the mix spontaneously igniting when spilled from failed targets in the field and allowed to sit in weather and sunlight for a week or so, but storage is not supposed to be done by people without a license anyhow.




Boom.
The explosion removed the windows, the door and most of the chimney.
It was the sort of thing you expected in the Street of alchemists. The neighbors preferred explosions, which were at least identifiable and soon over. They were better than the smells, which crept up on you.
-Terry Pratchett, "Moving Pictures"
View user's profile View All Posts By User
hcb
Harmless
*




Posts: 1
Registered: 7-3-2016
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 7-3-2016 at 15:54


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Good point Bert!

Kind of random... but I have found that about 5% Ethelyne Glycol complements tannerite quite well. Because at 2-5% aluminum it is not close to OB. Lets be honest... who wants to use 15% aluminum powder to make it OB?


Hello. Can you please tell me what "OB" means? I've been mixing my own ANAl targets and came here to learn more. Ethylene glycol is the active ingredient in antifreeze, correct? Is that the source you use?

The OP of this thread asked, as I recall, what Tannerite contains. That was years ago, if I'm on the right thread (I've been in and out of so many threads so please forgive me if I'm on the wrong one). I followed the information I found on Wikipedia and corroborated elsewhere and mixed 95% Amonnium Nitrate with 5% aluminum powder purchased commercially in 5 micron size, ratio by weight, and got a very nice boom out of a 1# target. But I will say the amount of Al powder seemed noticeably more than what came I my Sonic Boom brand targets and what I saw in the brand name Tannerite targets.l. I got AN from a fertilizer supplier for $10 for a 5 gallon bucket full. I did not process it as I've seen some suggest (blender to reduce particle size; call me a sissy but blending a chemical which can explode on its own (think Texas City I think it was) scares me). FWIW.

Thank you.

Edit: I should add that I placed my homemade ANAl mix into a 16.9 ounce (half liter) plastic bottle and shot it from 100 yards with a Ruger Mini 14 and .223 FMJ 55 gr which I've clocked at around 3,100 FPS.

--HC

[Edited on 3-8-2016 by hcb]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Metacelsus
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1842
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble

[*] posted on 7-3-2016 at 18:47


OB refers to oxygen balance.



As below, so above.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
feacetech
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 142
Registered: 12-2-2007
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 9-3-2016 at 14:45


87.5% AN
10% Icing Sugar
2.5% Al
works quite well

also AN from CAN fertiliser if you live somewhere where AN is hard to obtain (NZ)

CAN
boiling water
Stir and settle
Decant liquor and boil off water until temp is 160°C (this has something to do with optimal crystal structure)
Allow to cool and crystallise.
Break up and roughly grind with mortar and pestle
Dry in 100°C fan forced oven or just lay in sun.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Hennig Brand
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1278
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 10-3-2016 at 09:23


Quote: Originally posted by feacetech  

Decant liquor and boil off water until temp is 160°C (this has something to do with optimal crystal structure)
Allow to cool and crystallise.
Break up and roughly grind with mortar and pestle
Dry in 100°C fan forced oven or just lay in sun.


The ammonium nitrate solution will supersaturate making further water removal next to impossible. I never knew, or figured out, an exact temperature but when recrystallizing AN I would watch until supersaturation occured then would allow the solution to cool a few tens of degrees Celsius or so which would cause the solution to set up as a damp solid. I may have agitated/stirred a bit to get crystallization to commence (it has been a while). The damp AN then could be easily dried as you say. I used a temperature of 100-120C or so in the oven to dry the AN.


[Edited on 10-3-2016 by Hennig Brand]




"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Hennig Brand
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1278
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 17-3-2016 at 11:56


I think I should explain how I was dehydrating the AN solution, because I think it was perhaps a special case. I was using an oven, with temperatures ranging from 100C to 150C and maybe even higher on some occasions. The AN solution was placed in a large Pyrex tray and put in the oven. A large portion of the water was always able to be removed (the solution was not too much below saturated at room temperature to start with). At some point a skin/skim of AN would repeatedly start forming and disappearing on the surface of the AN solution. It was at this point, or a little while after, that even with very extended times in the oven very little more water seemed to be removed. Removing from the oven and allowing the temperature to lower a bit, and possibly a little agitation as well, caused a damp solid to form. It could then be put back in the oven and the AN dried to completion.


My current theory:

When the AN crystallizes it releases heat (exothermic), but it also cools first at the surface (evaporative cooling mostly) lowering the solubility there and forming the skin and preventing further water removal. The skin loses heat to the solution and a little due to evaporation of a little water from its surface and also a little to the air in the oven (convection, radiation). The now more highly heated solution next to/below the skin has more solvent strength at this point and pulls the crystallized AN skin back into solution, which this time absorbs heat (endothermic) which helps evaporative cooling cool the surface of the solution and once again forces the AN skin out of solution preventing water evaporation. It is funny to watch this process repeating over and over again in the oven, with very little water removal.

I remember using a pot on a hotplate, years ago, to remove water from an AN solution and IIRC it did boil down, but it was kind of a splattering mess to deal with in the process IIRC. How much heat per unit time that is delivered to the AN solution is definitely a factor.


Edit:

Found some good information. Funny how the seemingly simple things can get complicated.

The following table was taken from the attached pdf:

Crystallization Temperatures and Boiling Points of AN Solutions

AMMONIUM NITRATE (%)............80 82.5 85 87.5 90 92.5 95 98
Crystallisation temperature (°C).....57 65 75 85 96 108 122 146
Atmospheric boiling point (°C).....128 132 136 140 146 155 168 203


Attachment: Ammonium Nitrate Solutions.pdf (713kB)
This file has been downloaded 235 times


Just had another thought, the density of the solid AN formed on the surface is likely greater than the solution below too. It would tend to sink once formed and then go back into solution. Very weird phenomenon all in all!

Yeah,
AN crystal density 1.725 g/cm3 (20 °C) (Wiki)
AN solution density 1.41g/cm3 at 100°C (91% AN) (Above pdf)


[Edited on 18-3-2016 by Hennig Brand]




"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Microtek
National Hazard
****




Posts: 397
Registered: 23-9-2002
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 18-3-2016 at 11:56


Note that in some instances, CAN (calcium ammonium nitrate) denotes the following complex salt: 5Ca(NO3)2•NH4NO3•10H2O, sometimes with a certain amount of CaCO3 added. To find out if this is the case, you can add a solution of a soluble carbonate salt (eg. Na2CO3) to the filtered CAN solution. If there's any Ca2+ in there, it will precipitate as the carbonate.
If this proves to be the case, adding fairly large amounts of ammonium carbonate to the filtered solution (and filtering off the CaCO3) will eventually produce a fairly pure AN solution which can be concentrated as Hennig Brand describes above.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2693
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 19-3-2016 at 05:48


Solid denser than liquid is the rule...only a few examples exists of solid floating above its molten liquid (water, some metals,...)



PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Hennig Brand
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1278
Registered: 7-6-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 19-3-2016 at 10:53


I was aware that water and maybe a couple others were the exception to the rule and that for most changing to the solid phase involved a contraction making it more dense than the liquid phase. It is the whole process of dehydrating a solution of AN and the things observed, in particular how under certain conditions how tenaciously it can hold onto water, that seemed a bit unusual to me, but then again I really don't have experience drying that many different materials.



"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2693
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 20-3-2016 at 10:05


Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
I was aware that water and maybe a couple others were the exception to the rule and that for most changing to the solid phase involved a contraction making it more dense than the liquid phase. It is the whole process of dehydrating a solution of AN and the things observed, in particular how under certain conditions how tenaciously it can hold onto water, that seemed a bit unusual to me, but then again I really don't have experience drying that many different materials.

As you know, I'm particularly interested into density of materials related to detonic and as a good rule density of organic liquids are 0.88-0.92 times lighter than their solid phase.

About drying, it is also a matter of hygroscopicity and quantity...
Just like laundry tumble dryer...to get clothes completely dry, you need good aeration, good heating, moving and not too much overload...without this evaporation condenses into the rest of the clothes and process takes hours and hours.




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rosco Bodine
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 6096
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: analytical

[*] posted on 25-3-2016 at 06:27


When common sense is not operating, it often, and unsurprisingly may generate business for surgeons and undertakers. Credit to franklyn for this news

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/walton-man-blows-leg-off-...

http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2016/03/24/822363...

You will never see it reported but it was very likely the same material in off label use that was used "unsafely" in the Boston Marathon bombing based upon recollection of the color of the smoke signature. I always have doubted the "fireworks" story about the material used in the Boston attack, but never shared my thoughts about this for not wishing to be "inflammatory" knowing that the composition of matter would be improperly credited "blame" instead of the accurate assignment of credit to the evil ideology responsible for such stupidity.


[Edited on 3/25/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
NeonPulse
National Hazard
****




Posts: 330
Registered: 29-6-2013
Location: The other end of the internet.
Member Is Offline

Mood: thinking outside the box...

[*] posted on 25-3-2016 at 16:13


some peoples stupidity amazes me.... when i read this i thought of this thread. too bad it was already posted. But anyway heres what 9MSN had to say about it complete with video.
http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/03/26/09/25/us-man-blows-...

[Edited on 26-3-2016 by NeonPulse]




Where there is a will
there is a way.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
XeonTheMGPony
National Hazard
****




Posts: 496
Registered: 5-1-2016
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-3-2016 at 11:14


Natural selection at work! Shame it wasn't a bit and to the middle. No sympathy to that guy, what idiot sets off an HE in a metal casing and expects to not get hurt when in range!

In Canada you actualy have to pass a safety course befor geting a gun or tannerit, that is part of the reason for it!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 225
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 7-11-2016 at 08:40


Well,

I have searched wide and far, and I have a question that has been nagging at my thoughts for weeks..

And there is a prize to the wise gentleman who is able to answer it. The prize is knowing that you calmed down the mind of a fellow pyro :D

Tannerite contains .25% by weight zirconium hydride, what is the role, I am guessing it is an excellent sensatizer, better than just pure zirconium???

We know that brand name tannerite can even be detonated by a 17grain pellet (fired from a 22 with a nail gun cartridge) or a 17hmr. From experience and reports tannerite is much more sensitive than plain Al/AN.

Here is my theory: upon heat and pressure ZrH2 breaks into H2 and Zr. Since H2 is such a low density gas this creates pressure, and of course releases tons of energy when it bonds with the O2 from decomposing AN. And the zirconium metal oxidizes and releases energy. But MgH2 would have 8% H2 by weight while ZrH2 only has about 2% H2.... Why the zirconium?

It's role must be important or it would not be in tannerite as it is a expensive and hard to procure chemical.

I feel like there is a gem of knowledge in regards to this that could be applied to other mixtures.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2693
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 7-11-2016 at 10:57


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Well,

I have searched wide and far, and I have a question that has been nagging at my thoughts for weeks..

And there is a prize to the wise gentleman who is able to answer it. The prize is knowing that you calmed down the mind of a fellow pyro :D

Tannerite contains .25% by weight zirconium hydride, what is the role, I am guessing it is an excellent sensatizer, better than just pure zirconium???

We know that brand name tannerite can even be detonated by a 17grain pellet (fired from a 22 with a nail gun cartridge) or a 17hmr. From experience and reports tannerite is much more sensitive than plain Al/AN.

Here is my theory: upon heat and pressure ZrH2 breaks into H2 and Zr. Since H2 is such a low density gas this creates pressure, and of course releases tons of energy when it bonds with the O2 from decomposing AN. And the zirconium metal oxidizes and releases energy. But MgH2 would have 8% H2 by weight while ZrH2 only has about 2% H2.... Why the zirconium?

It's role must be important or it would not be in tannerite as it is a expensive and hard to procure chemical.

I feel like there is a gem of knowledge in regards to this that could be applied to other mixtures.

Hints:
1°) Zr is already good into flash compositions but too expensive vs Al.
2°) Zr enters some coruscative mixes (very exothermix mixes non gas generating)
3°) Most explanations are to be find into the Wikipédia page about Zr hydrides:
"Zirconium hydrides are soluble in hydrofluoric acid or alcohol; they react violently with water, acids, oxidizers or halogenated compounds."

"ZrH2 is used in powder metallurgy, as a hydrogenation catalyst, and as a reducing agent, vacuum tube getter, and a foaming agent in production of metal foams. Other uses include acting as a fuel in pyrotechnic compositions, namely pyrotechnic initiators."

"Powdered zirconium hydrides are flammable and can ignite and explode if exposed to heat, fire, or sparks. When heated above 300 °C, they decompose releasing hydrogen gas, which is also flammable."

--> Role is simply sensitizer to me.




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
MineMan
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 225
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 7-11-2016 at 14:18


Well, I sure would like to do some tests... can't find a suplier though ;)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3

  Go To Top