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Theoretic
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"An interesting approach to a study of the stabillity of molten NH4NO3 in the presence of heavy metals. Please let me know if you are going to do
it so I can be sure to be out of the way."
WELL, my chemistry book says that molten AN can be used to extract metal oxides like ZnO or MgO out of their ores and gives an example equation:
2NH4NO3 + CuO => Cu(NO3)2 + 2NH3 + H2O
Or for the reaction with the metals themselves: "analogous to nitric acid":
Cu + 3NH4NO3 => Cu(NO3)2 + N2 + 2NH3 +3H2O.
On second thoughts... If you are right and my chemistry book and me are wrong, then Cu - containing thermites are nice detonators of AN! 
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madscientist
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I would be wary when considering mixing molten ammonium nitrate with copper and nickel, as ammonium nitrate tends to complex with the salts of copper
and nickel to form primary explosives.
[Edited on 17-11-2003 by madscientist]
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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fascinating conversation guys!
but....maybe......
....http://www.onlinemetals.com/
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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also
what is patent # for BLACK HOLE BLACK
I had read about it in an unrelated publication and I too am VERY curious!
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
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BromicAcid
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I forget the exact specifications but nickel can be extracted from copper by fusing with sulfur and sodium hydroxide (at high heat of course, it is
fusing) The copper sulfide is soluble in the molten hydroxide whereas the nickel is not, upon cooling there are two distinct layers, I believe the
upper is nickel sulfide and the bottom the mixture of copper sulfide and sodium hydroxide, and such. If anyone is interested give me a holler and
I'll get the specifics.
Also as a side question, does anyone have any experience with nickel electroforming?
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Tacho
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A description of the process:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993356
It seems that you can deposit the proper nickel alloy by immertion "for five hours in a solution of nickel sulphate and sodium
hypophosphite"
Of course, the devil lies in the details.
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unionised
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Here is a place to start
http://yarchive.net/metal/electroless_nickel.html
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Tacho
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It seems that the electroless deposited nickel is perfect for super black.
I am very interested in depositing nickel in non-conductive surfaces. I intend to give it a try soon, but I cold not get sodium hypophosphite, only
magnesium hypophosphite.
I presume that, if it is soluble, the reducing power of the hypophosphite ion will be enough to make a deposit. I will use an alkaline bath, with
ammonium chloride and nickel chloride.
BTW, doing searches on hypophosphites, I found that they are soon to be controlled chemicals in the US.
A very comprehensive study about electroless nickel is here:
http://www.ias.ac.in/sadhana/Pdf2003JunAug/Pe1104.pdf
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Tacho
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I tried a solution of 3 parts nickel chloride, 3 parts magnesium hypophosphite, 10 parts ammonium chloride, and 50 parts water. The exact amounts
don’t seem to be crucial. I used a glass flask and heated it to 90ºC. Inside I put a Cu wire and a wood rod. After 1 hour, nothing had
happened. I tossed in a solder wire, because it has Sn, and Uncle Al said in sci.chem that you have to prepare the surface using Sn ions. Whatever.
I left the reaction unatended for a couple of hours and when I came back, all the water had boiled away. I didn’t use any thermostat.
There was shiny nickel in the Cu wire, there was powdered nickel on the wood rod, there was NO nickel in the glass surface and there was nickel on the
solder wire. Filling the flask again with water I noticed there was also flat nickel flakes floating about, just a few.
I put the Cu wire in dilute nitric acid. It reacted and eventually peeled off, but at no moment it became black. I guess the alkaline bath, using
ammonium chloride, doesn’t deposit phosphorus enough.
I wonder how can I prepare a ceramic surface to be plated this way.
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unionised
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I might look into silvering the surface (search on amateur telescope making) and then nickel plating that. Slightly ironic to start the process of
making something black by coating it with silver.
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nodrog19
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the penny was changed in 1983
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jarynth
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Porous Nickel
As a follow up to my Castner cell experiments, I tried to take advantage of nickel's and copper's different resistance to oxidation in hot alkali. As
often mentioned in the electrolytical sodium thread, a Ni anode in molten NaOH won't corrode, whereas Cu immediately starts getting oxidized, as
evidenced by the blue tinge diffusing from the anode. This principle should allow us to extract the Cu from suitable coins if these are used as anodes
in the NaOH melt (unless the presence of Cu makes Ni more vulnerable) and obtain a sort of Ni sponge.
Unfortunately, I didn't have the patience to melt NaOH again so I just took as the electrolyte a concentrated aqueous solution of NaOH instead. This
did NOT work as desired. However, a large worn (= previously used in other experiments) 75/25 Cu/Ni coin regained its shine. The electrolysis probably
removed the metallic salt and oxide residues on the surface. After the experiment, the coin actually looked rather greyish, kinda like pure nickel,
but this could be due to the sandpapering done before the electrolysis.
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pantone159
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Circulating coins made of pure nickel
A number of circulating coins are 'pure' nickel. (I might be off by 1 or so on some of the dates, I don't have my notes with me right now):
Most Canadian nickels before 1982 (some exceptions during WW2/Korean War)
Most Canadian 10/25/50 cent from 1968-1999.
Many Netherlands and France coins (no Euro coins though), e.g. 1/2 Fr and 1 Fr are Ni I think.
I am interested in a more complete list, as I collect elements, and these coins are cheap and so fun and easy to collect.
As far as copper cents, US cents before 1982 are 95% Cu, those after 1982 are Zn, 1982 goes either way. To distinguish, weigh them, Cu cents weigh c.
3.1 g, Zn cents weigh 2.5 g.
Canadian cents were 98% Cu until more recently, maybe the late 90's, I don't remember for sure. I think a lot of older UK coins are close to pure Cu
as well.
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woelen
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Dutch pre-euro coins were 99.5% nickel with a little other stuff mixed in (IIRC tin, and some metalloid elements). The coins which were nickel are
- 10 cents, 1948 and later (dubbeltje)
- 25 cents, 1948 and later (kwartje)
- 1 guilder, 1969 and later (gulden)
- 2.5 guilders, 1969 and later (rijksdaalder)
We also had 1 cent and 5 cents coins. There were made of pure copper, starting from 1948.
Unfortunately this nice source of pure copper and nickel has gone when the euro was introduced. I am happy to have saved almost 1 kilo of dubbeltjes
and kwartjes. 1 dubbeltje is 1.5 grams of nickel, one kwartje is 3 grams of nickel. So, the total value of coins is only 30..35 guilders, appr. EUR
15.
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ssdd
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This may sound a bit obvious, but at the cost of dissolving so many coils to collect the nickel would it not be a bit more economical to purchase the
metal itself and not worry about purity?
United Nuclear sells Ni strips for $3 each (5in by .75in)
This is at least if you want to use the metal for other experiments, but if you just want to prove you can extract it I guess that works too....
-ssdd
All that glitters may not be gold, but at least it contains free electrons.
-- John Desmond Baernal
http://deepnorth.info/ |
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woelen
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The nickel coins from NL are very pure nickel, so there is no need to worry about that. Actually, they are a fantastic source of pure nickel. It also
allows dissolving small amounts (the small coins only are 1.5 grams) and the cost of the coins probably is less than buying nickel strip from some
supplier.
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ssdd
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Ah OK, I was thinking more in the terms of American coins when I had made that statement. But I could see how having coins with a much higher
percentage of Ni in them would make it much more economical.
I just had this funny mental image of people taking massive amounts of Nickels and dissolving them.... 
-ssdd
All that glitters may not be gold, but at least it contains free electrons.
-- John Desmond Baernal
http://deepnorth.info/ |
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pantone159
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I've bought Canadian 25 cent coins at less than Ni spot before. Mainly I am just collecting them (like I collect other elements).
As for alloys like 75 Cu/25 Ni (US 5 cent coins) and similar, I agree, it is kind of silly to extract the separate metals, unless you just feel like
doing it. But there are close to pure coins, for various elements.
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JohnWW
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Cupro-nickel, usually 75% Cu 25% Ni, is widely used as imitation "silver" coinage in many countries. Until about 1900, almost pure Ag was used (I
have one or two such coins), then until sometime between about 1946 and 1963 alloys of about 50% Ag, 37.5% Cu, 12.5% Ni were used, and after that no
Ag at all (except in special commemorative coins).
That being the case, I wonder what efficient means of separating Cu and Ni could be used on cupro-nickel. An obvious one would be the carbonyl process
used for purifying Ni industrially, but generating and using large amounts of CO in a laboratory would be very dangerous.
[Edited on 6-10-08 by JohnWW]
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12AX7
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JohnWW
but generating and using large amounts of CO in a laboratory would be very dangerous. |
Gnaw, CO isn't much of a pain, it's quite easy to stack charcoal, blow a mild current through it and get a billowing dark blue flame out the top, pure
CO burning in air. Tap off as much as you'd like, or do it inside pyrex tubing heated with a bunsen burner.
Now generating and using large amounts of Ni(CO)5 in a laboratory would be very dangerous.
Tim
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unionised
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 12AX7
| Quote: | Originally posted by JohnWW
but generating and using large amounts of CO in a laboratory would be very dangerous. |
Gnaw, CO isn't much of a pain, it's quite easy to stack charcoal, blow a mild current through it and get a billowing dark blue flame out the top, pure
CO burning in air. Tap off as much as you'd like, or do it inside pyrex tubing heated with a bunsen burner.
Now generating and using large amounts of Ni(CO)5 in a laboratory would be very dangerous.
Tim |
Dangerous, and quite tricky since it only forms the tetracarbonyl.
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12AX7
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Oops, that's iron. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_carbonyl#Charge-neutral_b...
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