BASF
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Suicide bombers and TATP
http://www.waronline.org/en/terror/suicide.htm
thats a sad thing...
....be careful what you´re posting.
The wrong person might read it.
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Haggis
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If I read correctly, it sounds like the terrorists are casting acetone peroxide! Yes, that is a major disadvantage of posting online. The usual
benign people whom the content is intended for read it, but 'sponges' can also gain information that way. If they find out that they got
their information from any messege board, we are all in trouble for "aiding terrorism".
[Edited on 20-3-2003 by Haggis]
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Polverone
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That article says that dogs cannot discover TATP. That seems strange, given TATP's distinctive odor. Perhaps explosive-sniffing dogs aren't
usually trained for the compound. I wonder if automated methods have been developed for detecting it. I recall reading an analytical chemistry journal
article from a few years ago about explosive-sniffing equipment, and the article focused almost exclusively on nitrated aromatic compounds -- hardly
the only class of explosives around.
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a_bab
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It's obvious that the dogs are not trained to sniff the AP. Perhaps it simple doesn't worth to train them as AP is not an usual choise in
the terrorist world. Well, not in the past.
In the aromatic class there are several explosives, and the commercial dinamites may contain some quantities of DNT or something else, although NG is
the main component. Hence the effort to make an electronic sniffer and to stick in the aromatic class (it's the most used).
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Haggis
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What the dogs and bomb sniffing machines are looking for is free nitrogen or ammonia. Although TATP has a disctinct odor, the dogs must not be
trained on it. The odor given off may be chemically similar to household, non-regulated chemicals...which is exactly what TATP is made from.
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a_bab
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As a dog have the sniffing abilities up to 10,000 times better than a human, I'm quite sure that a dog is able to feel the difference between
acetone or any other household and TATP.
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a_bab
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No offence Haggis, but: "What the dogs and bomb sniffing machines are looking for is free nitrogen or ammonia."
Well, there is plenty of free nitrogen in the atmosfere, and the explosves are not known by releasing spontaneously nitrogen (only when they explode;
too late for the poor dog. As about amonia, it is present in the WC's vicinity, and where the organnic matter is decomposed. The explosives does
not rott.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Explosives decomposes slowly upon time and release different products depending of what familly they belong!Even if it is only traces amounts they
will decompose!
Most nitrate ester hydrolises and generates NOx and HNO3!
They also volatilises a bit and have a smell; of course similar molecules have similar smells because smell sense is molecular size dependant and is a
function of the groups on the molecule and their polarity!
Most nitroaromatics have NO2 groups (in the same positions) and have about the same molecular size and volatility!
Solvant smell is also something to think about!Most HE are made from basic chems and always have residual solvant smell or unreacted starting material
smell!
Dog are best at smelling some stuffs but not all; sometimes man are best...the sense of smell is so specific, sensitive and discrimanating that some
molecule can't be smelled by a certain species but wel by another (cf pheromons).
Also smell allows you to distinguish carvone from menthone even if they have exactely the same structure and the same groups at the same place but are
mirror images of each other!
If a terrorist use unconventional HE; dogs have never encountered them or haven't ever been trained to recognise them ... then such security is
useless!
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Haggis
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Blarg, I guess I'm wrong. No offence taken. I guess I should have looked into it more. That's what my chemistry teacher said and I took
it for true.
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Iv4
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In a plastic container the smell of AP would probably be altered to an extent that dogs would have to be trained for damn near every sort of common
plastic.
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Hermes_Trismegistus
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BASF
thats a sad thing...
....be careful what you´re posting.
The wrong person might read it. |
It would be silly to suppose that suicide bombers are a function of the internet.
They are, rather, a function of social conditions.
The Arabs are, in truth, getting pissed on by the Jews who were in turn, pissed on by the Teutons and other "civilised races" (white men
mostly).
All this pissing on, got all these people pissed off.
And unlike the old adage, adversity does not breed character, it makes men vicious.
Vicious men do brutal things, usually to the less fortunate and downtrodden.
Like my dear old dad says, Shit rolls downhill.
But I hope we don't forget that suicide bombers are not a new thing, or a foreign game of religious fanatacism.
It's occurence was quite common in the heady days of victorian-era England. Those were the days in which the term "Anarchist" was
coined.
It happened in England, in Norway, in Germany, in France, in Spain and was quite popular in Russia.
If you don't like to read, try watching this movie for a better sense of the era..
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6304385528.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics; even if you win: you\'re still retarded.
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DDTea
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Let's not forget, Tsar Alexander II was assassinated by a team of suicide bombers. But in those days, they lit a fuse to a big box of
explosives, and ran toward the target... Not that electrical ignition makes a big difference on the effect; there was still some messy civilian
casualties from the first of the bombs.
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If_6_was_9
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Read the pdf files here to see the real reason for this.
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=199
-------------------------------------------
Please keep this kind of "political activism" confined to the whimsy section. Thank you.
[Edited on 18-3-2004 by vulture]
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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TCAP powerful enough?
From what i have learned about AP, I dont think it would be a worthy filler for a bomb. It detontes easily which is a plus for them, but it seems to
lack the power need to do damage to surrounding structures. I guess if you wanted to kill a few ppl and you have a pound of it along with some nails
and you got onto a subway it would do the job. But you'd need like 20lbs of it to do seriouse damage to a structure (unless the charge was
strapped to it). If you take 50g of AP and strap it to a sapling, the sapling is cut in half. Set that same 50g charge about 12 inches away...nothing
happens to the sapling. Its VOD isn't bad, but it doesn't seem to have as much...whats it called.....energy out put(?) as say RDX or
blasting gel. Thus, its inablility to do damage to anything beyhond a few feet away from it(assuming the charge isn't over a pound.)
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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vulture
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The suicide bombers just need something to propel shrapnel that is easy to make and hard do detect.
Since they don't care about premature detonation, AP is the perfect candidate.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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Esplosivo
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| Quote: |
The plastification of acetone peroxide ("cooking" the explosive to form it as needed when it becomes cold) is a very dangerous process, too.
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With what the hack do they 'plastize' the AP?! And what does the 'cooking'mean? AP is so damn unstable and these suicide bombers
fry it!! Damn crazy!!
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IgnorantlyIntelligent
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Are dogs trained to snif out explosives or explosive compounds? Example, are they taught to find NG, or a stick of dynamite? NG has a weak smell if
any at all. Why couldn't one fill a water bottle with NG and say its a fruit drink. Even take fake sips of it from time to time. In the slim
chance you are stopped and sniffed by a dog, would he smell NG through the bottle? Besides, you wouldn't be stopped. Now you have about 1000g of
NG in a plane....
You can bring AP on board by stuffing those break apart pills with AP then putting it in your medication thing. Now you have about 5g of AP on board
the plane.....
Lighters are allowed on planes here and just as a plan B you could hide some matches in your shoe.....
So, you have 1000g NG and 5g AP on board with means of lighting it. You can picture the rest....
This wasn't really abotu how to blow up a plane I just got carried away. So, do they sniff out compounds alone or an actual explosive liek
dynamite,c-4,etc.
\"People fear from ignorance what they do not have the intelligence to understand\"
\"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.\"
\"A fool would rather not question, a soldier is taught not to question, a slave dares not question.\"
\"To fight for nothing is to love nothing, to die for something is to have lived for something.\"
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Turel
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Compounds
They are smelling for compounds. A dog's trained nose is a bit more sensitive than ours, so something that only smells up close to us, reeks to
the high heavens to them.
Don't forget that trained dogs can smell crystallized drugs inside plastic bags in luggage, due to the very small traces on the outside of the
seal. They are very sensitive.
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vulture
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Dogs are usually trained to smell the decomposition products.
For nitric acid esters (NC, NG etc) those are mainly NOx and HNO3, which smell is already easily detected by humans.
Drugs also have certain decomposition products or reagents sticking to them, acetic acid in the case of heroin for example.
I'm not sure about aromatic nitrocompounds, but they're a bit volatile at room temperature and also have a very typical smell.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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FrankRizzo
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New Scientist article about TCAP
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6925
Duh! Most detonations proceed to strictly gaseous products.
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Chris The Great
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Ok, read the article, carefully. It is important because it detonates in a completely different way than a traditional high explosive! The actual
detonation of AP would then seem to not have much release of energy at all, that is released later by the burning of the byproducts. This is very
different than a normal high explosive where the entire process occurs just behind the detonation wave. In AP it would have no formation of oxides
behind the detonation, all burning and thus energy release would occur after detonation has proceeded.
This could also explain APs tendency to produce very large, nice fireballs, after it would basically be a mix of acetone vapour in pure oxygen.
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