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Zinc
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[*] posted on 11-5-2006 at 10:01
CCl4/Al


I have heared many times that a mixture of carbon tetrachloride and aluminum powder can detonate.
Is this true and if yes what would be the velocity of detonation and how difficult would be it to detonate it (does it need a detonator and a booster)?
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mantis
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[*] posted on 11-5-2006 at 10:26


The reaction between Mg+Tetra is very energetic, so it is possible that the mix with Al can detonate.
But Al is also used in smoke granates with C<sub>2</sub>Cl<sub>6</sub>.
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verode
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[*] posted on 16-7-2006 at 15:25


try Na and TETRA wow!
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21Bravo
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[*] posted on 18-7-2006 at 23:48


Looks interesting --> interesting the bit about the aluminum oxide would make me a little hesitant seeing how all aluminum forms a protective coat of it. I really hope you'r joking about the sodium + carbon tet btw :P.

[Edited on 19-7-2006 by 21Bravo]

[Edited on 19-7-2006 by 21Bravo]

[Edited on 19-7-2006 by 21Bravo]
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neutrino
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[*] posted on 19-7-2006 at 08:44


From that data sheet:
Quote:
Mixtures of carbon tetrachloride with group IA, IIA, and IIB metals are explosive and shock sensitive. Carbon tetrachloride is
adsorbed by porous aluminum oxide (alumina); the process is exothermic and leads to spontaneous detonation. With cal-
cium hypochlorite, the addition of carbon tetrachloride causes an immediate explosion.


CCl<sub>4</sub> + Ca(OCl)<sub>2</sub> = explosion? Adding an oxidizer to an already fully oxidized substance causes an explosion? Am I missing something here?




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DeAdFX
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[*] posted on 19-7-2006 at 12:50


CCl4 + Ca(OCl)2 --> CO2 + CaCl2 + 2Cl2 ?
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franklyn
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[*] posted on 20-7-2006 at 09:56


Quote:
Originally posted by DeAdFX
CCl4 + Ca(OCl)2 --> CO2 + CaCl2 + 2Cl2 ?

Wrong halogen , you need fluorine for something like that to work

I thought of this, Ammonium Bifluoride and Calcium hypochlorite

2NH4F.HF + 2Ca(ClO)2 -> 2CaF + 4H2O + 2HCl + N2

This can only be a low explosive but with a lot of energy

It will also likely be to sensitive to risk making in

significant quantities.


Some alternatives along the lines you propose may be


Lithium Superoxide and Monofluoromethane

2LiO2 + 2CH3F -> 2LiF + 2CO2 + 3H2


Sodium Peroxide and Difluoromethane

Na2O2 + Ch2F2 -> 2LiF + CO2 + H2


Sodium TetraHydroBorate + tetrafluoromethane

NaBH4 + CF4 -> NaF + BF3 + C + 2H2


This last one is interesting because the supposed product of

explosion is itself combustible.

Sodium methoxide + Monofluoromethane

NaOCH3 + CH3F -> NaF + CH3OCH3 ( which is Methyl ether )


Another point is that all of these mixtures can be rendered safe

by simply venting the freon from the containment, leaving behind

the relatively inert powdered reagent. ( I'm supposing that this

won't form a complex compound )

.

[Edited on 21-7-2006 by franklyn]
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franklyn
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[*] posted on 26-3-2007 at 19:26
Hydrolysis of CCl4


and other chlorocarbons
http://home.clara.net/rod.beavon/hydrolys.htm

.
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Sauron
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[*] posted on 26-3-2007 at 19:31


Smoke grenades use hexachloroethane and Zn not Al.
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[*] posted on 31-3-2007 at 07:44


"Sodium methoxide + Monofluoromethane
NaOCH3 + CH3F -> NaF + CH3OCH3 ( which is Methyl ether )"

I have a doubt on this one here. :( But if so it might create a spectacular FAE for the incredible flammable properties of dimethyl ether and volatility etc.




F. de Lalande and M. Prud'homme showed that a mixture of boric oxide and sodium chloride is decomposed in a stream of dry air or oxygen at a red heat with the evolution of chlorine.
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[*] posted on 5-4-2007 at 01:39


How about C2Cl6/Al?
Cold it also detonate?




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[*] posted on 5-4-2007 at 02:38


Quote:
Originally posted by verode
try Na and TETRA wow!


I tried it today. It didn't do anything. I then ignited Na and spilled CCl4 over it. For 1 second it burned faster and then the fire extinguished. I also tied CHCl3 (homemade) stabilised with metanol and Na. It reacted but VERY slow.
I belive that the reactions didn't work because the Na is very old (20 years) and has a oxide coating.

I also tried CCl4/Al. It didn't work. I placed a small amount of Al powder on a zinc plate and poured a few drops of CCl4 over it. Then I tried to ignite with with a propane/butane torch. It didn't even burn. Does anyone know why?




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[*] posted on 5-4-2007 at 14:07


You're treating this as if it is a primary explosive mixture sensitive to heat which
it is not. The specific heat and volatility of the halocarbon precludes any mixture
can reach a needed reaction temperature since the metal would need to be near
molten. These are shock sensitive. The finer the mesh size of the aluminum the
better, a blend of stoichiometric proportions that resembles aluminum paint hit
with a hammer will explode.

.
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[*] posted on 23-4-2007 at 09:38


Today I placed a small amount of Al powder on a anvil and poured a few drops of CCl4 and hited it with a hammer. It didn't explode. This mixture is more stable than I thought. Perhaps it is only sensitive when mixed in the right ratio?



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[*] posted on 23-4-2007 at 21:06


Seems likely this is not fireworks grade aluminum huh.
Many powders receive a coating typically of wax to inert
them to static electric ignition. To test your powder take
a pinch between thumb and forefinger and sprinkle this from
high above over a lit stove burner. You should see an aerial
fireworks display in miniature with a great many dozens of
brilliant small white flashes several inches above the flames.
If you witness this occuring only in contact with the stove's
flame then your powder is coated and inhibited for pyro use.
It's possible to wash with paintstripper then add water and
allow to settle before pouring off the solvent floating on top.
Finally adding some alchohol, filtering and allowing this to air
dry should leave you a more sensitive powder. But if you're
going to all this trouble just buy the pyroaluminum.

.
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[*] posted on 29-4-2007 at 04:58


The tetra - Soduim reaction is particulary violent (explosive) if the sodium is burning before application of the CCl4. Maybe its a decomposition product of tetra that reacts? (Phosgene?).
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[*] posted on 29-4-2007 at 06:18


I tried it and sodium only burned faster for a second.



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[*] posted on 28-12-2007 at 05:52


Today I tried the reaction of Al and CCl4 again. This time I used homemade Al powder (made from a failed Al casting with an angle grinder). I put some Al powder on a steel block and added a few drops of CCl4 over it. And then I hit it with a hammer. The powder just disappeared but I don't think it reacted.



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[*] posted on 28-12-2007 at 11:14


Someone may be pulling your leg here zinc.... :o

Check out a guy named Pyrene, here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_extinguisher

and "Google" ("carbon tetrachloride" "fire extinguisher")
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[*] posted on 28-12-2007 at 11:59


Well of course they are fire extinguishers as halocarbons are very good at eating radicals. But that's a different story.

The reactivity of chlorocarbons with alkalis is well known. Zinc did you manage to generate a shiny surface on the Na, and expose *that* to CCl4 or CHCl3?
Other chlorocarbon reactions are that with NaOH, I seem to remember that this generates highly flamable/explosive gasses such as Cl2C2, dichloroacetylene, see https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2063&...

Regarding the Al, it has to be very fine of course (like 600 mesh), and angle grinder filings won't do. Also, there's an oxide coat which almost certainly prevents the Al underneath from reacting. Might I suggest to treat the Al with a very small quantity of HgCl2, or Hg, to form the amalgamate, which will expose the Al.




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[*] posted on 28-12-2007 at 12:13


Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
Zinc did you manage to generate a shiny surface on the Na, and expose *that* to CCl4 or CHCl3?


No I didn't do that. Probably it didn't work because of that.

Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
Might I suggest to treat the Al with a very small quantity of HgCl2, or Hg, to form the amalgamate, which will expose the Al.


How can that be done? Dissolving HgCl2 in water and adding Al powder to it and boiling? Or is there some other way?




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[*] posted on 28-12-2007 at 15:21


Good question - add some HgCl2 powder to Al powder (like 10 mg in a few grams), and mix for a fair while, let it sit, and mix more. Or use DMSO (not water, it'll react and coat the Al once again) to dissolve the HgCl2 if that's possible. The idea is to expose as much of the powder to the Hg as possible. Then let it sit with drops of CCl4. I'd bet after some time you'll have production of AlCl3. Even if you can't see it.

I must say, the Al powder in paints should be very good for this. It is extremely fine, and can be extracted using even water for acrylic paints- but be quick because, as I discovered, it reacts with water forming a nice sludge of aluminium hydroxide, and even using EtOH instead does not prevent this....

[Edited on 29-12-2007 by chemoleo]




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[*] posted on 28-12-2007 at 19:35


I'm not entirely sure, but perhaps HgCl2 or Hg2Cl2 are directly soluble in CCl4?
However, the safety of then adding Al is dubious as there is a chance for Hg(CCl3)2 or HgCl(CCl3) which though would not form in large quantities if any, would nonetheless be extraordinarily toxic. And if dimethyl sulfoxide, I'm sure there's some way for those Me groups to find the Hg...

edit: funny typo

[Edited on 2-1-2008 by halogen]




F. de Lalande and M. Prud'homme showed that a mixture of boric oxide and sodium chloride is decomposed in a stream of dry air or oxygen at a red heat with the evolution of chlorine.
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[*] posted on 4-5-2008 at 06:24


Sorry to bring up an old thread.

So for it to work Al has to be in suspension in CCl4. How to prevent it from settling? Is there something that could be added to the mix to stabilize the suspension?

Also could trichloroethylene be used instead of CCl4?




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[*] posted on 4-5-2008 at 07:08


Attaching abstracts on CCl4 + Al explosives. Also check US4233094. I've previously mentioned using CCl3NO2 in place of CCl4 but as far as I know it hasn't been tried. I'd previously attached a <a href="http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=5112&pid=58293">CCl4 + Na article</a> into the "novelty explosives" thread.


<b>Explosion of carbon tetrachloride and aluminum powder</b>. Lindeijer, E. W. Chemisch Weekblad (1950), 46 571. CODEN: CHWEAP ISSN: 0009-2932. Journal language unavailable. CAN 46:46818 AN 1952:46818 CAPLUS

Abstract

A mixt. of CCl4 and powdered Al provoked a fatal explosion. Sheet Al is not, or is only slightly, attacked by CCl4. The sensitiveness to detonation of certain mixts. of a nonexplosive liquid and a nonexplosive solid is discussed. In general, an ultimate explosion is to be anticipated when a strongly exothermic reaction may occur between intimate mixts., especially if one of the components is a liquid or a gas.


<b>Explosive properties of the compositions CCl4 + Al + ZnO</b>. Syczewski, M. Dep. Chem., Warsaw Univ. Technol., Warszawa, Pol. Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics (1994), 19(2), 87-9. CODEN: PEPYD5 ISSN: 0721-3115. Journal written in English. CAN 120:326929 AN 1994:326929 CAPLUS

Abstract

The CCl4 + Al + ZnO mixts. were prepd. in order to investigate their ability to detonate. The detonation velocity dependence on the charge d. was established. The increase of d. >1.8 kg/dm3 leads to quick inhibition of detonation ability. At d. 1.3 kg/dm3, particle velocity could be measured. Extraordinarily low parameters of detonation were explained by the special peculiarity of the explosion products. The compns. have application as smokescreen generators.

[Edited on 5-5-2008 by Axt]
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