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Author: Subject: A true story about a true raid.
Wolfgangg
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 13:10
A true story about a true raid.


My apologies if this is posted in the wrong section, but it's something I just have to share and get off my chest.

Due to what I will only describe as an unfortunate series of events... The cops happened upon my lab. Let me start by saying I'm a very private person. I stay to myself, don't bother anyone, haven't had much of a social life like I used to as I've grown up. I'm really a very quiet, simple person. Due to the stigma's attached to home chemistry, I tell NOBODY about what I do, for fear of them getting the wrong idea. I've had girlfriends whom I dated for months, and even years who I never bothered telling. The only person who really knows anything is my mother, who is also a very private person. And so this wasn't exactly something I ever expected to deal with.

One Saturday morning a few weeks back, I had the pleasure of waking up with 2 armed men standing next to my bed, and realizing that the police had swarmed my house. Immediately, they asked what I was trying to make in my lab. After shaking my head at what I knew was going to be a free for all on my house, I calmly said, "I wasn't TRYING to make anything, though I DID recently make anisaldehyde and salicylaldehyde". I don't even know why they asked me, because as I would come to realize, these people had even less than the average person's knowledge regarding anything about chemistry and likely had no idea what I was even talking about. In fact, the lead cop (who I will refer to as the alpha idiot) couldn't even pronounce 'vanilla extract'!

Anyway, the expected circus shortly followed. The state police, local police, and sheriff's office were all there. Men in haz-mat suits, armed men in kevlar, a giant mobile lab in the driveway, ect. All on an otherwise quiet Saturday morning. I wasn't TOO worried, as I knew I hadn't done anything illegal. Nevertheless it's disturbing having an armed militia in your house and being forced to evacuate under the guise of "safety" while they presumably rip it apart. I was also haunted by the fact that we're pretty much entering a police state. If they're willing to fine and shut down little kids' lemonade stands, or kill a man selling loose cigarettes, just imagine what they'll do to some crack pot they suspect of making drugs or explosives.

They must have been pretty frustrated, having organized such a raid with all those cops and chemists on their day off just to test simple chemicals like NaOH, HCl, H2SO4, DCM, household vinegar, ect. Nevertheless, they were absolutely convinced I was up to something, and not having anything to arrest me on, they asked me to come down to the station of my own "free will". You can tell they were really trying hard at the whole "nice guy" tactic of trying to be my friend... it was awkward. My initial instinct was to say nothing, just utter, "lawyer". However, I felt I had nothing to hide, and anyone with experience will tell you lawyers can be worse than the cops. And so, I took their bait and went with them, squished in the backseat of a small car between two much larger armed men, with 2 more in the front seats. It seemed comical, as I wouldn't exactly call myself physically intimidating.

"Here it goes..." I thought as they lead me down some stairs and left me alone in an interrogation room. I gave into their hilariously obvious ploy to collect a handwriting sample, was polite and honest with them about everything... but they didn't want to hear it, they were CONVINCED that I HAD to be making drugs or explosives, and so what followed was a slew of depressingly outrageous accusations.

I had an old book on drugs in my house (non-chemistry related, if anything it was more NA related) that an old girlfriend had left about 5 years ago. They didn't believe it wasn't mine and demanded to know whose it was, first and last name of course. I refused to tell them, and told them if it WAS mine I'd just tell them because this isn't Soviet Russia. It was bad enough that I had to deal with these morons, I wasn't going to lead officer Larry, Mo, and Curly to someone else for them to bother, let alone a girl I hadn't talked to in half a decade.

You can tell they thought it was a drug cook book, even though anyone who opened it for a simple glance could tell within a minute that that wasn't what it was. Even if it was though, I wouldn't exactly say that constitutes guilt as they seemed to think it did. I have lots of books on serial killers in my house, along with a knife block in my kitchen. Does that mean I'm an aspiring serial killer too?

At one point I was rather frustrated because I knew they thought I was lying and I was unable to express to them I wasn't, so I said I'd go through with a polygraph. 5 minutes later, the cop passed me his phone, showing me a picture of a book on lie detectors I had in my room, which another cop back at my house had texted to him. "Yea we found that book on how to beat a lie detector in your room" he said. I wanted to cry, I felt like I was in the twilight zone. In reality, it was an old college book on the history of the polygraph, taught by AND written by an ex cop who used to work at that very same police station at one point. His name was printed on the cover. Anyone who opened that book to look for a SECOND could tell it wasn't "how to beat a polygraph".

They kept saying, "we know you're lying, you can't change what you've done up to now, but you can control your future, do the right thing and help yourself out by telling us where the goods are". They repeated this ad nauseam. I couldn't even say a word, because they were convinced I was lying and were getting rather frustrated with me at that point. My only thought was, "man... there's WAY too many investigation discovery and cop shows on TV nowadays for the whole 'you can help yourself out' line to work anymore".

I was initially relieved when the chemist came to talk to me, as I felt maybe he'd be more reasonable. I was wrong. You can tell he was flustered because my lab is in an old paint workshop, and different colors and types of paint are splattered and misted everywhere from over 20 years of use. Normal procedure would be to swab and test each and every little splatter. I assume he didn't want to spend the next month at my house, going up and down the stairs, to and from my basement to their mobile lab analyzing what is likely hundreds of thousands of little splatters everywhere.

The alpha idiot (whom I knew was an asshole before even talking to him just by seeing the way the other more decent cops' whole demeanor and personality changed as soon as he was around) was accusing me of making drugs. I explained to him that I was not, and described what I had in fact done. Since he was accusing me of crimes against chemistry, It felt appropriate to use chemical nomenclature. His response was, "you can keep using all these big words, blah blah blah". I shook my head, as I felt he was unwittingly expressing his incompetence to me. After all, his job as a cop IS to enforce the law. Whether he likes it or not, there are quite a few laws written in the language in chemistry, so if HE doesn't understand even the most basic things, then who the fuck is he?

And so he brought the chemist back in to do the cops' job. He was even more ridiculous. Repeatedly using the same tactic of saying bullshit, having me call him out on bullshit, then asking (very accusingly) how I'd know such things. As if being knowledgeable is a crime. At the time, the lab smelled strongly of vanilla and cherry. He went on to make outrageous statements saying that ecstasy, then meth, then DMT smells like vanilla or cherry. I swear, if the lab had smelled like 10 year old bottled giraffe farts, he would have been trying to tell me ecstasy, meth, DMT, ect smell like 10 year old bottled giraffe farts.

He also went on to say you can easily buy safrole on Amazon, likely to see what I'd say. When I told him that was bullshit, he acted as if he had tricked me or something, and how could I possibly know unless I had looked into it myself. I told him, "because that statement is so ridiculous that it's self defeating, as far as I know safrole is just as illegal to buy/sell/possess as ecstasy itself. If you could just trade illegal things like that on amazon you wouldn't need to buy safrole in the first place. I haven't tried to buy LSD at shoprite, but that doesn't stop me from knowing they don't carry it".

It was exhausting dealing with all the stupidity, locked in a small room for 5 hours while I knew they were back at my house "searching" it. I had a box full of stock chemicals right out in the open which I know for a FACT they didn't even look in. There could have been a severed human head inside and nobody would have been the wiser. They must have had the chemists do a chemist's job, testing things and such, but no cops did a cop's job in the lab, and so many things went undiscovered/untested. The cops were probably too scared to go near the big bad dangerous lab. It was just a total disorganized mess.

Anyway, I guess they eventually had no choice but to cut me free. All the cops had long faces, like they had been defeated, it was sad. The alpha idiot made one last attempt on my way out to get me to confess to whatever. I could have told him more about where Hoffa is then where any drugs were. He threatened me, swearing that my life was over, that he'd have his "street crimes unit" follow me everywhere and I'd never have peace or leave my house again. He also threatened to call my place of employment and tell them what I was a suspect in. They offered me a ride home, likely because they had to, but I just wanted to get away from them. And so I walked the 5 miles back home in the cold. The alpha idiot screaming, "enjoy the cold asshole!" as I walked away.

It's disturbing to know that such pompous, self important, uneducated assholes like that man are able to work their way so far up the totem pole. To be fair though, there WERE a handful of decent, respectful men who were just there to do their job. Who didn't insist on making things personal and didn't get off on verbally bullying me around in my own house, making me leave the door open to piss then ushering me back to the living room and telling me to sit "or else things will get nasty".

It was a few hours before I got back home, and needless to say I was stunned to see the lab was still there. In fact, it appeared untouched. They didn't take or move ANYTHING (except very bizarrely, I realized later that they took the book on polygraphs... which they tried to give me a receipt for but I wouldn't take it). It was kind of eerie, it was as if they didn't even look at it hard. They threatened that they'd be back, but I very much doubt it. That whole operation likely costed thousands in tax payer dollars, just to test simple reagents you can buy at the grocery or hardware store. And that's not even counting the investigation they're likely carrying out. They can have at it. They're probably looking into my finances, and maybe even monitoring my internet. In fact, I'd take great pleasure in knowing they're reading this right now.

[Edited on 17-4-2015 by Wolfgangg]
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aga
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 13:56


Wow. Thanks for sharing.

To be as fair as possible to the Police, they deal with Scumbags every day.

Scumbags do the bad stuff, and every word they utter is a Lie.

10 years of dealing with that, and the Police simply get hardened to it, and assume that everyone they arrest is lying (as they usually are), and high intelligence isn't a requirement to be a high-ranking police officer.

It would be a good idea for all amateur chemists to invest in covert cameras with sound, that save the video somewhere remotely.

It was good luck on Your part that no 'evidence' was planted, which is a sign of the Integrity of the Officers that broke into our house.

A good thing would be to contact the alpha asshole (when you've calmed down enough to forgive the massive violation) and explain your perception of the whole experience.

Edit:

Unlikely he'll ever understand what happened, or learn anything unless you do.

[Edited on 17-4-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 14:07


Hm :D
I think you did overall good job on containing your thoughts and not telling one of them something bad.I am pretty sure I wouldn't do good...but the the polygraph part was amazing.

I am lucky that we don't really have that level of stupidity in my police.Probably because it is really small place and no one really does chemistry or anything related.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 14:44


My initial thought (and please don't take this as legal advice) is to counter with the following question: Why? Would you take that risk for a few measly bucks? Have to deal with the low life of society AND risk going to jail? Hurting people? Why? I don't want to hurt anybody for any reason.
Opportunity is not the same as motive. Remember that this is someone that carries a gun every day without going on a spree kill. On some level he must believe that there are "good people" and "bad people", and that most are "good". So why should I be any different? What makes him think I would be less "good" just because I am interested in chemistry? The world of chemistry is beyond vast, it encompasses everything from the air we breathe to the DNA and proteins that makes up everything we are. We're like magpies with ADD, looking for something shiny. Oooooh, me like!

The point is: We all carry huge responsibilities every day. Just think about how many lives you intersect on your daily commute, one moment of distraction can wipe out an entire family without any ill intentions. Society doesn't work because people can't hurt each others but because most choose not to. So I would very much like to know why I am any different. What the hell is it that makes me so goddamn different just because I have some odd interests? What in the world would make me want to hurt my fellow human beings?

[Edited on 17-4-15 by Fulmen]




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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 15:52


Wow that's terrible. Good thing you were completely legit. Do you know what tipped them off? Just curious because you obviously didn't order anything illegal as you didn't have anything. It sucks that the current standard is guilty until proven innocent.



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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 15:59


Quote: Originally posted by szuko03  
It sucks that the current standard is guilty until proven innocent.


It seems the police operate on that assumption. Fortunately the courts don't.




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Chemosynthesis
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 16:22


This thread reeks of deception. We know you're lying, you can't change what you've done up to now, but you can control your future, do the right thing and help yourself out by telling us what you're really up to....

I am sorry to hear that you went through this, for several reasons. It can be unfortunate that, though not all police act this way, I have noted a couple individuals in both federal and state law enforcement act extremely suspicious of any notion of hobby chemistry... and the state LEO who most surprised me with this had a graduate background in chemistry!
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 16:56


Quote: Originally posted by aga  


It would be a good idea for all amateur chemists to invest in covert cameras with sound, that save the video somewhere remotely.

It was good luck on Your part that no 'evidence' was planted, which is a sign of the Integrity of the Officers that broke into our house.

[Edited on 17-4-2015 by aga]


This is a good idea; if any evidence were to be planted, you'd be screwed for sure.




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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 17:26


Weren't you free to walk out at any time during the interview? No offense but it looks like you knew you were banging your head against a brick wall within 20 minutes of arriving at the cop station. You are certainly a more patient man than I.

You decided to go with them because you had nothing to hide and obviously thought you would convince them of this. I'd think the continuous childish/cliche'd games they were playing would be enough proof that it was gunna end up a bad job :P.

[Edited on 18-4-2015 by Mesa]
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 17:34


I didn't order anything suspicious, everything I had was simple OTC items, or compounds derived from OTC sources. Which, of course, could mean anything, but there wasn't anything I'd personally deem as overtly suspicious even if I was in the business of doing so. I'd rather make things myself (or attempt to) rather than order from a chem supplier for this very reason.

There wasn't exactly any "tip off" or anything, more like an unrelated "freak accident" (I guess you'd call it) that drew attention to the house.

I asked to leave since I wasn't under arrest, but they said they could detain me for 24 hours.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 17:55


Supposedly the advice lawyers give when asked is that you should, without exception, never volunteer anything more than the bare minimum you are legally required to when dealing with police questioning, with the reasoning that if you havn't done anything wrong, the only possible way you can get into trouble is by interacting with them further. If there was any basis for them to act further, they wouldn't require you to voluntarily continue anywhere.

I guess for a lot of people the motivation would be some kind of pride/image thing, if someone refuses to go back to the station with them they feel guilty/figure the cops will view them as suspicious etc. It seems like the trick here is to not give a shit about other people's opinions/your image :P. Someone living near you obviously already has a low enough opinion of you to tip off the cops to assumed illegal activities anyways.

[Edited on 18-4-2015 by Mesa]
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 18:19


Quote: Originally posted by Wolfgangg  

I asked to leave since I wasn't under arrest, but they said they could detain me for 24 hours.

This is true in the U.S., but investigative detention only starts when you ask. Anything else, no matter how long you cooperate, is considered just conversing. So to anyone interested, be aware that talking to police for hours can just add to the clock in the worst case scenario.

Even if you hate lawyers, and I probably understand why... it can be useful to request one because that terminates interrogation until you are given legal counsel. Don't keep talking in that case. Enjoy your break.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 22:09


Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
This thread reeks of deception. We know you're lying, you can't change what you've done up to now, but you can control your future, do the right thing and help yourself out by telling us what you're really up to....

I am sorry to hear that you went through this, for several reasons. It can be unfortunate that, though not all police act this way, I have noted a couple individuals in both federal and state law enforcement act extremely suspicious of any notion of hobby chemistry... and the state LEO who most surprised me with this had a graduate background in chemistry!



I read the entire first post. I read the first few short sympathetic posts,

I read the first two sentences of Chemo's post (not the whole thing)

I have to say you, Wolfgangg are a liar. There is not one word of truth in your post, and actually you are not a good writer of fiction.

I would beg forgiveness if I were wrong but I have read enough in my life to know you are full of crap.

There are particular patterns that liars are predisposed to. You son fit all of them.

Poor victim. Sudden shock. Passive reaction. Time in your mind to decide. Overwhelming intelligence. Descriptions of what you are not party to. Integrating worse scenarios in your "testimony", while admitting to possession of "Serial killer" materials. Alpha dog description indicates fear, Fear is real in you.
Pretending to know / protect cohorts. I could continue but I don't want to read that crap again.

I don't care the motive. Go find another girl to play with.

If I were an FBI sort... I'd look for you just because you are dangerous to others. If you don't admit that the post is a lie... there is NO REDEMPTION for a soul like yours.

I bet you already know this.

My first flaming post here... Bite it!




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 00:10


Let me guess... the land of the -free-, the home of the brave?



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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 00:35


Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
Quote: Originally posted by Wolfgangg  

I asked to leave since I wasn't under arrest, but they said they could detain me for 24 hours.

This is true in the U.S., but investigative detention only starts when you ask. Anything else, no matter how long you cooperate, is considered just conversing. So to anyone interested, be aware that talking to police for hours can just add to the clock in the worst case scenario.

Even if you hate lawyers, and I probably understand why... it can be useful to request one because that terminates interrogation until you are given legal counsel. Don't keep talking in that case. Enjoy your break.



You both watch too much television. IF you are lawfully detained it can last for a period of ten days.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3142

BUT you CAN file a civil suit for unlawful detention IF you can prove there was no probable cause for detention.

http://falseimprisonment.uslegal.com/civil-actions-for-false...

I'm not addressing the OP here... There obviously HAD to be a warrant for lawful entry into the premises.
I believe in this fairy tale the probable cause would have been paramount to the credibility of said fantasy. With this in hand a reluctant release would have been DAYS down the road.

I just pray that when the fairy police raid my house that they are as clean, neat, and timely as the OP's fairies..

Who's that guy that did all the Fat burning infomercials, and then got fat... That's the cop I want to question me!

original.jpg - 393kB




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 06:16


The other thing is someone doesnt really need to be doing something wrong to have this happen. As we all know the average neighbor does not understand chemistry and I am sure that if I had a distillation set up made in the window eventually someone would call the cops on my "meth lab" so they could tell their family how they saved the town. I am sure if you google things like "neighbor smells ammonia" and see how many paranoid idiots think anything chemistry is evil.



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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 07:07


Seems that at least two SM members have virtual polygraphs ;)

Why the vehement declamations about it all being a lie ?

Even if it is, thoughts are provoked, which is good.

It should really be in some other topic though.




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 07:25


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I have to say you, Wolfgangg are a liar. There is not one word of truth in your post, and actually you are not a good writer of fiction.

I would beg forgiveness if I were wrong but I have read enough in my life to know you are full of crap.

There are particular patterns that liars are predisposed to. You son fit all of them.


I don’t know how you conclude that, especially judging by the rest of your largely incoherent ramble.

The OP’s post is somewhat emotive and sometimes descends into value judgements that his account could have better done without.

Other than that I see little reason to disbelieve the gist of Wolfgangg’s story.

Poorly educated cops, ‘arrest happy’ and riddled with all sorts of confirmation biases (here ‘chemistry = drugs’)? These exist and not just in the US either.

So, if you have evidence that the OP is fabricating this story, let’s hear it and please try and make it more than that lamentable noise that seems to plague that stuff between your ears ever so often.

Quote:
There are particular patterns that liars are predisposed to. You son fit all of them.


That sounds like something a frustrated and over-zealous cop would say!


[Edited on 18-4-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 07:47


I think Zombie might just be playing the part of an overzealous cop. If not, then yikes.



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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 08:18


I do have to admit that my BS filter went off during certain parts of the story, but I gave him the benefit of a doubt due to it possibly being language used and the way it was written.

I have no reason to doubt the story, but it just sounds off in some places. But I think it is just because a lot of emotion is behind it, and the OP trying to express his experience in words.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 08:39


Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  
I do have to admit that my BS filter went off during certain parts of the story, but I gave him the benefit of a doubt due to it possibly being language used and the way it was written.

I have no reason to doubt the story, but it just sounds off in some places. But I think it is just because a lot of emotion is behind it, and the OP trying to express his experience in words.


Very much the way I experienced it too.

As regards "the OP trying to express his experience in words", lets be grateful he didn't try and express it through the medium of dance! ;)






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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 09:22


Having been through a similar experience, I can believe the basics of the OPs story. The details might be embellished but it is certainly plausible. I suspect mine was a mistaken apartment number but they had a warrant and I let them search and they were polite but intimidating. I wasn't doing anything related to chemistry and was not involved in drugs (which is what the warrant was for). They searched with a drug dog and left empty handed. I was a bit shaken up from it but they were professional.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 09:36


LOL... Part overzealous cop, part muddy between the ears, part father of a teen age girl, part brother to a pack of liars.

Quote:
"Our approach has been influenced by the analysis of linguistic styles when individuals write or talk about personal topics. Essays that are judged more personal and honest (or, perhaps, less self-deceptive) have a very different linguistic profile than essays that are viewed as more detached (cf., Pennebaker & Francis, 1996). Interestingly, this linguistic profile is also linked to improvements in the authors’ physical health (Campbell & Pennebaker, 2001; Pennebaker, Mayne, & Francis, 1997). This suggests that creating a false story about a personal topic takes work, and results in a different pattern of language use. Extending this idea, we would predict that many of these same features would be associated with deception or honesty in communication (see also Undeutsch, 1967, cited in Vrij, 2000). Based on this research, at least three different language dimensions should be associated with deception: fewer personal self-references, fewer markers of making distinctions, and more negative emotion words.
The use of first person singular (I, me, and my) is a subtle proclamation of one’s ownership of a statement. Knapp et al (1974) hypothesized that deceivers may avoid statements of ownership either in attempt to “dissociate” themselves from their words or due to the lack of personal experience (see also Vrij, 2000). Other studies have found that when individuals are made to be self-aware (presumably a state of honesty about oneself), references to the self increase (e.g., Davis & Brock, 1975)
Deception is a cognitively complex undertaking. Based on previous emotional writing studies, one would assume that deceivers would have more difficulty making distinctions in their stories. From a cognitive perspective, truth-tellers are more likely to tell about what they did and what they did not do. That is, they are making a distinction between what is in the category of their story and what is not. Indeed, individuals who use a higher number of exclusive words (e.g., except, but, without) are generally healthier than those who do not use these words (Pennebaker & King, 1999). Similarly, deceivers might also want to be as imprecise as possible. Statements that are more general are easier to remember, and the deceiver is less likely to be caught in a contradiction by keeping his or her story as simple as possible. Finally, deceivers may feel guilty either about lying or about the topic they are discussing (e.g. Ekman, 1992; Vrij, 2000). As a result, deceptive communications may be characterized by more emotions that are negative. In everyday interactions, little or no attention is paid to these linguistic dimensions, but if the appropriate elements of linguistic style could be identified, they might serve as a reliable marker of deception."

Selected References

Pennebaker, J. W. (1997). Writing about emotional experiences as a therapeutic process. Psychological Science, 8, 162-166.

Pennebaker, J.W., & Francis, M.E. (1996). Cognitive, emotional, and language processes in disclosure. Cognition and Emotion, 10, 601-626.

Pennebaker, J.W., & King, L.A. (1999). Linguistic styles: Language use as an individual difference. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 77, 1296-1312.

Pennebaker, J. W., Mayne, T., & Francis, M. E. (1997). Linguistic predictors of adaptive bereavement. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 72, 863-871.

Pennebaker, J.W. (2002). What our words can say about us: Toward a broader language psychology. Psychological Science Agenda, 15, 8-9.

Newman, M.L., Pennebaker, J.W., Berry, D.S., & Richards, J.M. (2001). Lying words: Predicting deception from linguistic styles. Paper submitted for publication.


I may be wrong. It happens once or thrice...




They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 09:46


Nice references. Now can we have your evidence for your assertions?



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macckone
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 09:51


Zombie,

I will just quote Gregory House "Everbody lies".
The real question is what is lie and what is truth.
Because in even in lies there are usually significant truths.
Good liars use a lot of facts that are actually true.
In the OPs case I would say there is probably significant truth.
Not saying it is 100% factually accurate but everyone embellishes.

Police showing up is never a fun experience, because your the first question in your mind is 'What did I do wrong?'
Even if it is just to ask check on your car because you left your trunk open. Yes, this happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I was packing for a trip and went in to the house for a load of crap.
Next thing I know the cop is knocking on the door. He was just trying to be helpful. Fortunately I don't leave chemistry gear laying out or it could have turned out much different. I thanked him for checking on it and tried to appear really grateful.

In any case, the most dangerous kind of liar is one that actually believes his own lies. Those are usually called politicians.
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