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Author: Subject: A true story about a true raid.
Zombie
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:21


no!

Ok... Created stories are different from stories retold from memory in several key areas.

One:
Created stories over emphasize the validity of the about to be told "tale" in an attempt to distract the listener form picking apart misaligned details or potential "slips" in times, dates, places.

"A true story about a true raid."

Two:
Created stories are purposely vague on dates times, and places. this allows the "teller" to adjust the tale on the fly.

"One Saturday morning a few weeks back"

Three;
leaving out complex yet integral sections of the tale due to limited knowledge of the processes involved in creating said actions.
Instead focusing on mundane self descriptions. The self descriptions all thru the tale will be longer winded than the actual event that description is attempting to mask due again to a lack of understanding of the process of said actions.

"Due to what I will only describe as an unfortunate series of events... The cops happened upon my lab. Let me start by saying I'm a very private person. I stay to myself, don't bother anyone, haven't had much of a social life like I used to as I've grown up. I'm really a very quiet, simple person. Due to the stigma's attached to home chemistry, I tell NOBODY about what I do, for fear of them getting the wrong idea. I've had girlfriends whom I dated for months, and even years who I never bothered telling. The only person who really knows anything is my mother, who is also a very private person. And so this wasn't exactly something I ever expected to deal with."

One Saturday morning a few weeks back, I had the pleasure of waking up with 2 armed men standing next to my bed, and realizing that the police had swarmed my house. Immediately, they asked what I was trying to make in my lab. After shaking my head at what I knew was going to be a free for all on my house, I calmly said, "I wasn't TRYING to make anything, though I DID recently make anisaldehyde and salicylaldehyde". I don't even know why they asked me, because as I would come to realize, these people had even less than the average person's knowledge regarding anything about chemistry and likely had no idea what I was even talking about. In fact, the lead cop (who I will refer to as the alpha idiot) couldn't even pronounce 'vanilla extract'!"


All of the above two paragraphs were self descriptive, yet the attempted point was...

"One Saturday morning a few weeks back, I had the pleasure of waking up with 2 armed men standing next to my bed,"


There are also analytically tells in the use, and counted number of pronouns, verbs, adverbs.
There is a software called LIWC ( Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count ) that does this work for you.

"In order to provide an efficient and effective method for studying the various emotional, cognitive, structural, and process components present in individuals' verbal and written speech samples, we developed a text analysis application called Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count, or LIWC. The first LIWC application was developed as part of an exploratory study of language and disclosure (Francis, 1993; Pennebaker, 1993). As described below, the second version, LIWC2007, is an updated revision of the original application. It is best suited for Windows-based and Power Macintosh platforms. LIWC2007 applications are designed to analyze written text on a word by word basis, calculate the percentage words in the text that match each of up to 82 language dimensions, and generate output as a tab-delimited text file that can be directly read into application programs, such as SPSS for Windows, Excel, etc."

"With each text file, approximately 80 output variables are written as one line of data to a designated output file. This data record includes the file name, 4 general descriptor categories (total word count, words per sentence, percentage of words captured by the dictionary, and percent of words longer than six letters), 22 standard linguistic dimensions (e.g., percentage of words in the text that are pronouns, articles, auxiliary verbs, etc.), 32 word categories tapping psychological constructs (e.g., affect, cognition, biological processes), 7 personal concern categories (e.g., work, home, leisure activities), 3 paralinguistic dimensions (assents, fillers, nonfluencies), and 12 punctuation categories (periods, commas, etc). A complete list of the standard LIWC2007 scales is included in Table 1.

http://www.liwc.net/index.php


Bottom line is that depict detection rates even for highly trained individuals is only at or around 63%.

I am not highly trained so I would easily take 13% off the top, making my opinion worth little more than a coin toss.
Instinct goes a long way so lets add back 3%... I can declare a belief based on 53% probability, and feel comfortable with it.






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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:25


Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
Fortunately I don't leave chemistry gear laying out or it could have turned out much different.


Similar statements, mainly coming from US based members, are on the rise here on this forum. Are things getting to a point that people feel obliged to hide their hobby, even if they are completely innocent? That would be a very sorry state of affairs.

I also don’t buy into the tendency to blame the kooks: kooks are kooks and amateur chemists are amateur chemists. If the two are associated in the minds of some then these ignorant knee jerkers should be blamed for that association, which is a form of ‘guilt by association’ and thus wholly wrong.

Someone should start a federal ‘US Association of Recreational Chemists’, methinks…




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:30


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  

I am not highly trained so I would easily take 13% off the top, making my opinion worth little more than a coin toss.
Instinct goes a long way so lets add back 3%... I can declare a belief based on 53% probability, and feel comfortable with it.




G-d, all these stupid, stupid scientists that don't even get out of bed for anything less than 80 % and usually demand, 95, 99 and higher as a decent confidence level of evidence!

You're not convincing anyone here, I think.




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:40


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  

Someone should start a federal ‘US Association of Recreational Chemists’, methinks…


You could possibly have such an organization, maybe even making it the "US Assoc. of Recreational Scientists." You could have by-laws, elected officers, dues, annual meetings, meeting minutes, criteria for membership, certificates, etc. But of what value would this be when confronted with the prejudices of LEO in the US?

[Edited on 18-4-2015 by Magpie]




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:42


Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
the first question in your mind is 'What did I do wrong?'

Mine would be more "what can they get me for ?"

I'd better get rid of the table salt to be on the safe side.




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:43


Given the OPs few post here, there isn't much to go by his previous posting. Zombie's analysis that even trained professionals are only 63% accurate, it is really hard to call BS. The story is plausible but likely embellished. I think it is up to the reader to determine if they believe the story.

As for feeling the need to hide our hobby, yes, our society is such that any hint of chemistry is immediately associated with drugs or bombs. Neither of which are good for the individual chemist. Chemophobia is rampant and just having something that smells odd could result in a hazmat response. See the thread about picric acid gauze for an example of the overreaction.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:46


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  

I am not highly trained so I would easily take 13% off the top, making my opinion worth little more than a coin toss.
Instinct goes a long way so lets add back 3%... I can declare a belief based on 53% probability, and feel comfortable with it.




G-d, all these stupid, stupid scientists that don't even get out of bed for anything less than 80 % and usually demand, 95, 99 and higher as a decent confidence level of evidence!

You're not convincing anyone here, I think.




Who cares whom I convince of what?

I stated my opinion.
I was asked how I arrived at said opinion, and I explained how I came to my opinion...

What else matters?

If 2 houses were about to explode, and you HAD to be in one of them... 53% looks pretty damn good now doesn't it? ;)

[Edited on 4-18-2015 by Zombie]




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:49


The Linguistic analysis thing looks interesting.

Doubt it'd work out what i was hiding by saying "Today was a gruntled day".




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:52


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
The Linguistic analysis thing looks interesting.

Doubt it'd work out what i was hiding by saying "Today was a gruntled day".



53% says I can... :D




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:56


To be honest (check that in linguistics) i think Zombie and Chemosynthesis are being downright Rude for their own selfish reasons.

1. The post is in the wrong topic.

2. This is supposed to be a Chemistry discussion (in this topic)

3. Whether the OP's post is true or not is unproven, nor does it need to be proven.

4. Nobody here has a CLUE as to what is said here is true or not, never mind PROOF.

Now if you could all move along like good citizens.

Maybe say Hi to Wolfgangg as a new member.




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 10:58


There is no harm in assuming someone is basically truthful in telling a story that is rather plausible, does not require any action on the part of the reader, and does not instruct people to do something specific. So assuming they are not truthful based on a 53% probability and basically calling them a liar seems over the top and unfriendly. We do want to be friendly here.

As for exploding houses, there is significant harm in being in an explosion so 53% matters a lot more.

People have a right to their opinions but sometimes it is better to say I am skeptical rather than saying you aren't telling the truth. Especially when we don't want chase off new members.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 11:05


There was a similar story like this a few months ago someone posted here. The fact is if there no explicit laws about chemistry or glassware they can't really touch your belongings. If they do, and confiscate anything, and it turns out you were truly never doing anything, then they could be looking at huge lawsuits.

You never mentioned how they discovered your lab?
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 11:34


A couple of legal points, the length of time the cops can hold you without charging you is limited to 72 hours in the US but may be less depending on the state and the potential charge. In Texas for example, they can only hold you for 24 hours on a misdemeanor before charging you. Such charges are things like public intoxication (yes I get drunk sometimes). You can sue them later for false arrest if you are held for any significant period and are not free to leave but you have to prove that a reasonable cop would not have brought you in.

You can also be held as a material witness which can be indefinite. There is currently a lawsuit in New York about someone who was held for over a year as a material witness and the charges were later dropped against the original suspect after they found the real perpetrator. Being a material witness is actually worse than being accused of a crime apparently.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 11:37


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
But of what value would this be when confronted with the prejudices of LEO in the US?


Such an association can provide all kinds assistance to its members, somewhat similarly to a union. Legal advice, legal assistance, general objective information to the general public and LEO, all that helps.

There are hundreds of such interest groups in the US and many do sterling work. There's no reason to believe an association for recreational scientists would not be able to do the same. Get taken more seriously and the chances of LEO harassment decrease.

So why has such an organisation hasn't arisen yet? Possibly things aren't bad ENOUGH yet.

Zombie:

Apart from the fact that your 53 % number appears to have been plucked out of thin air, it's also a piss poor number to base ANY decision on. Not to mention that it's in stark contrast with your initially displayed certainty.




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 11:50


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  


Zombie:

Apart from the fact that your 53 % number appears to have been plucked out of thin air, it's also a piss poor number to base ANY decision on. Not to mention that it's in stark contrast with your initially displayed certainty.



Respectfully Mr. Blogfast, I knew that was coming...

In the present studies, we took a more systematic approach to examining language as a marker of deception. Human judges tend to perform just above chance levels at identifying deception (for reviews, see Bond, Berry, & Omar, 1994; Ekman & O’Sullivan, 1991; Kraut, 1980; Zuckerman et al., 1981). The majority of studies have examined college students who may not have developed special skills for recognizing deception. Ekman and O’Sullivan (1991) tested groups of presumed deception detection “experts” and found that secret service agents accurately assessed deceptive videotaped interrogations 64% of the time compared to college students (53%), psychiatrists (58%), and robbery investigators (56%). Experts using physiological equipment appear to be more accurate, although the evidence is mixed (for reviews, see Ekman, 1992; Knapp & Comadena, 1979). Because human judges may not readily attend to the subtle linguistic cues that are characteristic of deception, we used a comprehensive text analysis program to create empirically derived statistical profiles of deceptive and truthful communications.

This is an exert from one of my citations. I will attempt to attach the complete PDF.

As to Mr. Wolfgang I owe you an apology. Same for the members of this forum.

As is pointed out this thread is on a specific topic, and my opinion on truthfulness has no place in the discussion. I am sorry to all for my emotional display.

Mr. Blog... You love a good battle. You must be part Scottish. ;)

[Edited on 4-18-2015 by Zombie]

Attachment: Deception.doc (96kB)
This file has been downloaded 494 times





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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 12:07


Yeah, I have to agree with Aga, I think this needs to continue in a different thread or something.

Thank you for sharing your story, Wolfgangg. It is a good reminder of the delicate state of affairs we do have here in the USA.

The government overreach has gotten to the point where it can't support it's own weight, and now has to find other justifications for the existence of certain things. I have seen this in my line of work, where government organizations fight each other to take over the others assigned work/funding, and try to evolve themselves individually to fit their own pursuits. I have even seen one organization piss off another, and then the other refuse to work with them, effectively disabling them from accomplishing their mission.

I am not a government worker, but I make my money from dealing with them, and hence profit from this disorder. I wish it were different, but then I would have a different standard of living.

I can only assume this applies to every level of government and military. Playing politics can just about ruin anything.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 12:16


Zombie:

53 %, wherever it came from, is no basis for dismissing anything as 'lies'. Next time, toss a coin or pluck the petals from a flower.




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 12:39


What are the last 5 places you've ordered from? In german forum you can find reputations of such assholes

I get it - you buy large amounts of I2 and P, fair play, come in and look around because it's useful to make HI and precursor for meth
But if you have never ordered anything that can be used for illegal cause, I would demand to see what probable cause they have and find a solution to that. (By that, I mean avoiding whomever you've ordered from and let everyone know that they narc on innocents)
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 13:19


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Zombie:

53 %, wherever it came from, is no basis for dismissing anything as 'lies'. Next time, toss a coin or pluck the petals from a flower.







maxresdefault.jpg - 46kB




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 13:33


I agree with Zombie, this has all the earmarks of a fabricated story. Problem is those are also earmarks of a true story written by a stressed person.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 13:39


Guys, I wasn't meaning to seriously discredit the OP. My first paragraph was just a slight add lib on what the cops said!

Also, interesting on the 10 day thing,is that is applies to non-citizens and parolees, Zombie. My source was the local police department in their training of cadets (not state POST certification, though, so in no way binding) based off of United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531 (1985).

[Edited on 18-4-2015 by Chemosynthesis]
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 15:07


Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
Guys, I wasn't meaning to seriously discredit the OP. My first paragraph was just a slight add lib on what the cops said!



That's how I understood it. Sadly not everyone did...




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 17:49


I looked over the OPs first 4 posts. They were generally good quality including pictures. There is nothing to indicate the OP is involved in anything illicit. Certainly not enough to warrant a police visit. Based on his limited interaction with the board, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I think he embellished things a bit, but most interactions with the drug cops are unpleasant at best and horrific at worst. I think zombie believes the OP is involved in something less than legal. I don't think that is warranted. If he thinks the story is fabricated from end to end, that is a whole separate issue and I don't think that is warranted. Of course zombie is entitled to his opinion but out right calling someone a liar, not in the tongue in check way that Chemosynthesis did, but seriously is uncalled for.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 18:05


Understood Macckone.

I did summarily apologize to the poster, and the forum.

For clarification, it was an end to end fabrication I was suggesting.




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[*] posted on 18-4-2015 at 18:15


Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
I looked over the OPs first 4 posts. They were generally good quality including pictures. There is nothing to indicate the OP is involved in anything illicit. Certainly not enough to warrant a police visit.


Good point. Seems like a very competent experimenter, going by these first posts.




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