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Author: Subject: Chlorates and Perchlorates - for what??
zephler1
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 11:06
Chlorates and Perchlorates - for what??


There are a ton of posts in this section on the electrolytic production of chlorates and perchlorates, but I have to ask, what is the interest in these materials? I can only find their use for things like explosives - are all of these in depth, extensive experimentation's and lengthy posts just for people making their own explosives? Not that there is anything wrong with that, I mean everyone has hobbies, I am just amazed by all of the posts and work done if the only end use of this stuff is to make stuff go boom? I don't mean to insult anyone by this post, I am just curious. :)
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Amos
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 11:29


That's kind of how I see the entire energetic materials thread. It kind of bores me, to be honest. I do really love potassium chlorate for how the crystals look and feel, though. It's fun to do demonstrations with, as well.



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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 11:44


Quote: Originally posted by zephler1  
There are a ton of posts in this section on the electrolytic production of chlorates and perchlorates, but I have to ask, what is the interest in these materials? I can only find their use for things like explosives - are all of these in depth, extensive experimentation's and lengthy posts just for people making their own explosives? Not that there is anything wrong with that, I mean everyone has hobbies, I am just amazed by all of the posts and work done if the only end use of this stuff is to make stuff go boom? I don't mean to insult anyone by this post, I am just curious. :)


Both are strong oxidisers, hence their applications in explosives and rocket propellants.

But they also find uses in non-aqueous chemistry, as oxidisers. KClO3 is used industrially in some aluminothermic reductions as a heat booster via:

KClO<sub>3</sub> + 2 Al === > KCl + Al<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub> (very exothermic)

Sodium chlorate was once a widely used weed killer, now largely phased out.

[Edited on 25-4-2015 by blogfast25]




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byko3y
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 11:55


I need a chlorite to selectively oxidize aldehyde to carboxylic acid. As you may know, the only viable way to make chlorite is by decomposing a chlorate to chlorine dioxide.
Chlorates and bromates are used to perform halogenation on deactivated aromatics, like nitrobenzene http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00323a039 , as well as a regular halogenation to avoid dangerous chlorine and bromine vapours.
Perchlorates are good electrolytes, and perchloric acid has unique catalytic properties: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo900614s and http://www.organic-chemistry.org/abstracts/lit1/392.shtm
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cyanureeves
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 12:08


platinum recovery also uses chlorates.
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 12:38


They are also needed especially for making interesting and colorful fireworks (as well as for loud reports). Everyone interested in making fireworks is going to want to acquire some of these materials at some point. Their extreme usefulness in this area outweighs the efforts of preparing it for quite a few people apparently.



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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 12:50


speaking as somebody with very little experience and new to the hobby, i was interested in these chemicals for several reasons. i wanted to learn some simple electronics, and i had limited access to chemicals. i was able to build a bench power supply, learn how to solder, and ended up with both potassium chlorate and sodium chlorate starting with some free ice melter from craigslist and some table salt, respectively.
and, it was really fun blowing some shit up after the synthesis!
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 12:58


While both chlorates and perchlorates can be used for high explosives, their real application is within pyrotechnics. Both are useful for pretty much any pyrotechnic application, from rockets and colored stars to burst and explosive devices. And you can spend a LOT of chemicals in this field, think pounds rather than grams. That makes a good supply quite useful for many.



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jock88
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 14:22



The fact that you can make an explosive out of salt and water.............
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 14:42


Even that I don't agree that energetic materials are not interesting to explore and are just for those who like "everything to go boom", I also join to the question and want ask someone knowledgeable to enumerate uses of potassium chlorate, especially things useful to amateur chemists - anything interesting I can do with it?
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 14:56


Screaming gummi bears?

I think of chlorates as solid oxygen for all practical purposes. Good oxidiser. A bit of a bulldozer to crack a nut in most applications. But good to have on hand. And it has this over permanganates: KClO3 is colourless which is nice in aqueous chemistry.
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 15:18


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
And it has this over permanganates: KClO3 is colourless which is nice in aqueous chemistry.


In aqueous chemistry chlorates and perchlorates are rather sluggish oxidisers, compared to permanganates, dichromates, nitric acid or hypochlorites though.




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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 15:49


  • Perchloric acid which is just a spectacular acid, distill from perchlorates and sulfric acid.
  • Once you make perchloric acid, dehydrate further to dichlorine heptoxide ;)
  • Read up on oxygen candles, fun project
  • Make some silver perchlorate and watch how easily it dissolve in benzene, I geek out every time.
  • Make some inorganic complexes, you will be surprised how many are isolated as perchlorate salts.
  • Make ferrates (or other high-oxidation state compounds) by fusing perchlorates with potassium hydroxide and your target metal in a lower oxidation state, wicked good oxidizing mixture.


There are so many uses for perchlorates, to think of them only in relation to energetic materials is certainly stereotyping.




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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 16:24


Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
Make ferrates (or other high-oxidation state compounds) by fusing perchlorates with potassium hydroxide and your target metal in a lower oxidation state, wicked good oxidizing mixture.


Any other specific examples, other than Fe(VI), you know to work?




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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 16:53


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
Make ferrates (or other high-oxidation state compounds) by fusing perchlorates with potassium hydroxide and your target metal in a lower oxidation state, wicked good oxidizing mixture.


Any other specific examples, other than Fe(VI), you know to work?

Chromium(III) oxide can be oxidized to potassium chromate, although this works just as well using nitrate.
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 17:10


Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
Chromium(III) oxide can be oxidized to potassium chromate, although this works just as well using nitrate.


I've done it myself (with KClO<sub>3</sub>;) but Cr(+6) is hardly exotic, now is it? I certainly wouldn't waste on perchlorate on that.

[Edited on 26-4-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 17:36


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  

I've done it myself (with KClO<sub>3</sub>;) but Cr(+6) is hardly exotic, now is it? I certainly wouldn't waste on perchlorate on that.

Sorry, I thought Bromic mentioned chlorate instead of perchlorate. I've done small scale experiments with both chlorate and nitrate(The last one with nitrate resulted in a minor explosion that left my air-charcoal furnace a mixed yellow green color) You didn't say anything about producing exotic salts though;)

On topic with the thread, I have an old book about the chemistry of tellurium which mentions that the basic perchlorate can be synthesized by the action of perchloric acid on TeO2, but it doesn't mention any particular uses.
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 17:43


Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
You didn't say anything about producing exotic salts though;)

On topic with the thread, I have an old book about the chemistry of tellurium which mentions that the basic perchlorate can be synthesized by the action of perchloric acid on TeO2, but it doesn't mention any particular uses.


No, I didn't mention 'exotic', correct. I thought it was kind of implied. Things like Cu(+3) I'm interested in. Ag(+2).




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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 18:33


Quote: Originally posted by jock88  

The fact that you can make an explosive out of salt and water.............


this exactly. i was and still am just amazed that salt and a computer power supply i pulled from the trash dumpster behind my apartment led to incredibly powerful flames the NaClO3 made with some sugar. and, later, when i made thermite for the first time, i made the rust for the thermite with the same power supply.
speaking as a noob, i think this phenomenom of transforming something quotidian into something exotic is what attracted me to hobby chemistry, just like it is what sparked my interest in my profession, bread baking.

[Edited on 26-4-2015 by Hellafunt]
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 18:42


Bismuthate is a little on the rare side and that can also be done in the same manner. Or ruthenates if you're into that sort of thing. If you look through Mellor's works it seems like that was the method of choice for making high oxidation state compounds, although if they really exist or not is another question. For example, Volume 15 regarding nickel:
Quote:
In 1869, E. Dufau reported the formation of a salt of nickel dioxide, or nickel peroxide, NiO<sub>2</sub>, namely, barium dipernickelite, BaO*2NiO<sub>2</sub>. H. Schulze observed that when nickel chloride, bromide, or iodide is dropped into molten potassium chlorate, oxidation takes place and a mixture of nickel dioxide and monoxide is formed...

But what can be found on NiO<sub>2</sub> in recent literature? They may have made the genuine compound or something different, I always think back to all the claims of making perbromates prior to inorganic chemists admitting defeat just before someone gave fluorine a try.

There are lots of molten salt reactions that can be done using chlorates and perchlorates but alas, in recent years, I feel mainstream chemistry has moved away from those sorts of methods except for a select few.

[Edited on 4/26/2015 by BromicAcid]




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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 19:01


i think exactly as jock88 and Hellafunt on this matter enough that i had several pounds of the stuff.i soaked towels in chlorate and water mix then dried them and lit them like gun powder.the neighbors would see the smoke but would also smell the sweet sugar and just never could figure anything out.one time i mixed so many chemicals together with a chlorate mix by product of a failed experimet and threw it all away in the dumpster.one of the last things i added to the mix was also a sulfuric acid mix by product and noticed the dumpster smoking.i was watching t.v. and happened to look out the window and ran outside and jumped into the dumpster and scoped out globs of the potion.i wonder if anyone saw me hose down the alley?
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[*] posted on 25-4-2015 at 20:07


The per/chlorate ion(s) is/are rarely insoluble, making it/them useful in aqueous transition metal chemistry.
My main use for chlorate (potassium) is an easy oxygen source, mix 1 part manganese dioxide with 8-10 parts K-chlorate and slowly heat it. The catalyst can be filtered out and the KCl reused. Containing 1.5 moles of avalible oxygen per mole of chlorate, and with yeilds around 95%, it's the cheapest source for me. Only cost is time since I don't pay the electric.




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[*] posted on 16-5-2015 at 05:58


what do you use the oxygen for?
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[*] posted on 16-5-2015 at 08:31


They use to believe Neodymium Dioxide existed, formed by pyrolysis of oxalate in air, but it was an illusion. Rb3NdF7 does exist however, AND, I looked up a old German paper about the presence of NdO2 provided it was in the company of Zr or Ce oxide or some kind of diluent like that, and there might have been a strontium salt of some kind? SrNdO3? I do not recall. Some kind of salt. Chlorate fusion might be worth a try.

[Edited on 16-5-2015 by Morkva]




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