Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  
Author: Subject: Id like to make a HUGE smoke cloud
Punk
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 64
Registered: 22-2-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-7-2006 at 21:47
Id like to make a HUGE smoke cloud


with household chemicals. The sugar/salt and matchheads mixture in the ACB did not work out so well any suggestions?

Something simple and safe is what im looking for.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
enhzflep
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 217
Registered: 9-4-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-7-2006 at 22:16


Not too sure what you mean by safe. I.e - in terms of the reaction, or the smoke produced.

Though, it's probably not terribly important, as this method is not particularly nice in either sense.

As kids, we played around with the ubiquitous chlorine/brake-fluid bombs. This went on for months and months. Starting out with 50gm piles on bricks. Moving on to 100gms in plastic pop bottles, before the big finale.

Forgive me here, my recollection is somewhat hazy. On the night in question we poured around 500ml (wt unknown) of granular pool chlorine into a 900ml glass bottle. We then proceeded to pour in brake-fluid until it was level with the top of the chlorine granules. Yeah, I know - bloody stupid, but in our 'infinite wisdom' we had concluded that if the lid were to be left off the bottle, that the pressure build up would not be too great and that we could expect a 4-6ft high flame from the top of the bottle.

Well, needless to say this was not to be the case. The six of us present all witnessed a blue flash that started in the middle of the mixture and propogated radially, somewhat like a dinner plate in shape. After this, 2 simultaneous 'spikes' were observed to travel both up and downwards from this point to the top and bottom of the mixture. (all of this happened in about 1/10 of a second)

At around about this point we all realised that we were pretty much screwed, and that now would be a good time to turn around. Halfway through the act of turning around a large sound that is best descibed as a 'boof' was heard and we were all hit in the back by flying pieces of the bottle.

Wanting to avoid the smoke, we ran out the front and observed the cloud of white smoke to be covering the 5 bedroom, 2 storey house that I resided in at the time. All of the neighborhood dogs were barking, as were all of the porch lights turned on. oops! When we turned back to look at what we'd done, there was no sight of the house. From 15m away the entire house was covered by this thick white smoke. :o

After around 1/2 an hour the smoke (and smell) had subsided sufficiently to permit our re-entry. Apart from the window that was broken and the plants that died from having the mixture splattered all over them, everthing was fine.

Perhaps this would be better placed in the "Most ignorant thing you've done while conducting an experiment thread", however - as long as glass were not used, the activity conducted in a non-urban environment and most importantly, that the smoke were not to be used for hiding living organisms/creatures. If these precautions were followed, then and only then could this be considered safe.

Total estimated smoke output > 1000 cubic meters.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
woelen
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 7102
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

[*] posted on 16-7-2006 at 23:07


Punk, please do not think of repeating that experiment with pool chlorine granules. That smoke is terribly poisonous and it is carcinogenic. You don't want to pay the price for this years after, or have others (people, or animals) pay the price for such a stupid k3wlish experiment.

A much safer and less toxic smoke can be made by using ammonium chloride. Take sparklers and put these under a thin layer of ammonium chloride, only leave the tip uncovered. Light them at the tip. This gives an incredibly dense, non-toxic and only marginally irritating smoke. Ammonium chloride is non-toxic, in fact, it even is used in sweets.

[Edited on 17-7-06 by woelen]




The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
evil_lurker
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
Member Is Offline

Mood: On the wagon again.

[*] posted on 16-7-2006 at 23:29


Yeah swim can testify to the fact that TCCA makes some damn good smoke.

Just throw a couple 8oz pucks in some toluene and heat...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
ethan_c
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 104
Registered: 5-6-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 00:26


Household materials, you say?
1.) Collect dry wood from outside. Pile it up, smallest pieces on the bottom. Leave air space.
2.) Take matches. Light the bottom of the pile.
3.) Collect green wood, leaves, pine needles, etc from outside and put on sufficiently large fire. Observe result.
Important note: This experiment should not be performed inside, or on anything but dry dirt, stone, or pavement.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
woelen
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 7102
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 01:06


Evil_lurker, I find the idea of mixing TCCA with an organic compound as a smoke source a VERY bad one. This is asking for serious trouble and also produces really toxic smoke.

This kind of crap experiments should not be performed in any inhabited area. If enough of that kind of experiments is performed, then at some time TCCA will also be banned as an OTC chemical, due to misuse. Please do not spoonfeed the k3wls with this kind of info :(.

We have to be careful with the chems which still are OTC. TCCA is a very interesting oxidizer and it is one of the only few real good oxidizers which is left available for the general public as a nice OTC chemical. That should remain so!

[Edited on 17-7-06 by woelen]




The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
YT2095
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1091
Registered: 31-5-2003
Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
Member Is Offline

Mood: within Nominal Parameters

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 01:15


try heating up ping-pong balls in a metal tin as if you were trying to Melt them :)



\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Endo
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 109
Registered: 5-1-2006
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Cold

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 06:26
Smoke


I have done smoke using sugar/KNO3 in a 50/50 mix. Heat them together carefully with a lot of stirring and the mix will melt together, while it is still warm it can be pressed/moulded into containers or blobs and fuses inserted.

If this doesn't give you a dense enough smoke you can always add up to 5% TiO2 or ZnO to the mix to get a heavier denser white smoke.

Endo
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Mr. Wizard
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1040
Registered: 30-3-2003
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 06:37


This isn't as K3wl as a big smoke bomb, but it works better. Buy a propane powered insect fogger, such as this one:
http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/Product.asp?PG=1934
They are actually very simple propane burners that have a stainless steel spiral tube, with a small hole in the end, running through it's hot zone. A hand powered trigger pump pushes a small amount of mineral oil through the tube with each pull. The oil is vaporized by the hot coil and comes jetting out as a huge white cloud of smoke. You can obscure a whole backyard with two or three pumps of the handle. If you don't want to spend that kind of money, learn how to make one, it will teach you more about science and technology than all the store bought stuff. You could use charcoal and a small metal can for the heat source. A small plastic squirt bottle will provide the pump. Another VERY effective method is to make yourself a pulse jet engine and feed light oil into the exhaust. There are commercial foggers that do just that. Use non toxic oils.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
neutrino
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: oscillating

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 06:55


I'm curious about this brake fluid smoke. What exactly in it is carcinogenic? Is it the vaporized fluid itself, some chlorinated byproduct, aerosolized hypochlorite, or some really exotic byproduct of the reaction?



View user's profile View All Posts By User
woelen
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 7102
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 07:02


I have discussed this once before and what happens is that all kinds of quite heavy chlorinated hydrocarbons are formed. The oil is not totally broken down, but a mist/smoke of medium size chlorinated compounds are formed, which are VERY nasty. These are known to be highly likely to be carcinogens (think of it as old chlorinated oils, used in certain electronic components, these are not allowed anymore at the moment).

For this reason I am so against the TCCA/oil mix or hypochlorite/oil mix. I have no problem with people making some fun at times (I also once was 16 ;) ), but the chlorinated oil mist has nothing to do with fun anymore. So, I would say, if you really want a smoke bomb, try some of the other suggestions, there are quite a few at the moment already, and none of these is really nasty if you accidently happen to inhale some smoke.




The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Punk
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 64
Registered: 22-2-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 07:11


Well after reading the above posts I think woelen and endo posted what I was looking for. Do to the shitty detail of the anarcy cookbook I used sodium chloride for potassium nitrate and the matcheads probly wouldnt work like sparklers would. The salt/sugar mixture I made did make a dense white smoke but the matcheads didnt keep it going consistintly.

So how can I obtain potassium nitrate over the counter as I would also like to also make my own black powder and fuses for some loud noisemakers.

So I was thinking of pouring this kn03/sugar melt into a 2 liter pop bottle filled with sparklers packed together standing verticly with the center one sticking higher to light.

What if I mixed black powder in with it?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
evil_lurker
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
Member Is Offline

Mood: On the wagon again.

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 07:16


Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
Please do not spoonfeed the k3wls with this kind of info :(.
[Edited on 17-7-06 by woelen]


Aw c'mon...

What's wrong with speeding up the process of natural selection? :P
View user's profile View All Posts By User
neutrino
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1583
Registered: 20-8-2004
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: oscillating

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 09:22


My advice to the punk: stop reading the crapbook and go to www.roguesci.org and see what real pyrotechnics are. Then come back and post when you have some idea of what you're doing.

Failing that, please decrease the world's kewl population by one. The people at roguesci and here will be more than glad to tell you how. :D




View user's profile View All Posts By User
jimmyboy
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 234
Registered: 1-3-2004
Location: Texas
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 11:54


another good way is newspapers soaked in ammonium nitrate or potassium chlorate and then dried -- it will burn fast and puts out alot of smoke - i think it may be the ink that makes it so heavy ..
in small amounts this should be relatively safe...


im also glad someone spoke up on this thread - this thread is worth something if it results in him not getting hurt -- i dont wanna see sciencemadness on the 5 o'clock news because some kid got blown up making "smoke bombs"

[Edited on 17-7-2006 by jimmyboy]

[Edited on 17-7-2006 by jimmyboy]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Maja
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 143
Registered: 27-2-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 13:06


"ammonium nitrate/potassium chlorate" means ammonium nitrate + potassium chlorate
if yes Ammonium chlorate is highly unstabe ....
View user's profile View All Posts By User
hodges
National Hazard
****




Posts: 495
Registered: 17-12-2003
Location: Midwest
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 14:01


Simply burn some red phosphorous, as you see me doing in this picture ;). Yes, this is red phosphorous burning, and I took the picture.

4P + 5O2 ---> 2P2O5

The P2O5 forms a dense cloud of phosphoric acid by taking moisture from the air.



Hodges
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Punk
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 64
Registered: 22-2-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 15:46
sure


Ill just hop over to the local convience store and pick up a few kilos of red phosphorus.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
sparkgap
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1233
Registered: 16-1-2005
Location: not where you think
Member Is Offline

Mood: chaotropic

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 19:28


Be sure to tell us where that convenience store is if you succeed in getting that red P. ;)

And yes, Punk, the ACB is no good.

sparky (~_~)




"What's UTFSE? I keep hearing about it, but I can't be arsed to search for the answer..."
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Twospoons
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1050
Registered: 26-7-2004
Location: Middle Earth
Member Is Offline

Mood: Full of B12 - YIPPEE!

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 20:08


I've always made smoke flares for the kids simply with KNO3 and sugar, with about 10% sulphur as well. If you can't get potassium nitrate, try calcium nitrate - its still sold as fertilizer in farm stores. The only difference will be the bright orange flame, due to the calcium.
As a side benefit, nitrate/sugar smoke actually smells rather good - like caramel (not surprising, really).




Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
View user's profile View All Posts By User
woelen
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 7102
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

[*] posted on 17-7-2006 at 22:41


I'm afraid it won't work with the calcium nitrate. Clacium nitrate is an hydrated nitrate (IIRC a 6-hydrate). That really will spoil the reaction. It will give off too much water on heating.



The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at https://woelen.homescience.net
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
jimmyboy
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 234
Registered: 1-3-2004
Location: Texas
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-7-2006 at 11:59


red p would be the best by far -- now only if i had a red phosphorus tree out back...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
evil_lurker
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
Member Is Offline

Mood: On the wagon again.

[*] posted on 18-7-2006 at 12:54


Quote:
Originally posted by jimmyboy
red p would be the best by far -- now only if i had a red phosphorus tree out back...


If I had an RP tree and you had a feather up your ass, we'd both be tickled...:P
View user's profile View All Posts By User
hodges
National Hazard
****




Posts: 495
Registered: 17-12-2003
Location: Midwest
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 18-7-2006 at 13:31


I took that picture with a Polaroid camera back in 1981. I just scanned it in recently. I got the red phosphorous from my high school chemistry teacher. I guess times have changed a bit since then in the US. I do not presently have any phosphorous.

Hodges
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Punk
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 64
Registered: 22-2-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-7-2006 at 09:36
Well


Anyone know the composition of the store bought or even government smoke bombs?

Ive tried the rolled up newspaper saturated with sodium hypochlorite but the results were unsatisfactry. Ill try saturating with the sugar/salt and see how that burns.

Being that red phosphorus is used as a flame retardent I cant see how it would be easy to ignite
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  

  Go To Top