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Author: Subject: The Strange Fate of a Person Falling into a Black Hole
Zombie
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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 06:22


Quote from the Hawking link:
". A full explanation of the process, the physicist admits, would require a theory that successfully merges gravity with the other fundamental forces of nature."


That sounds strangely familiar... "All the rule of physics will apply, yet nothing can exist"

I'm pretty sure that sombrero wearing cows are not involved but the concept that mater compresses into pure energy makes sense.
I'm NOT a math guy. I see the picture but have no clue on the why.

How involved would it be to create a model of energy?
Compare that to a theoretical model of infinitely compressed matter?

I'd LOVE to have the chance to work these thoughts out with a Hawking type guy. The trick is to approach it w/ an open mind, and forget all the pre-conceived theories.




They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 07:25


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  

I'm pretty sure that sombrero wearing cows are not involved but the concept that mater compresses into pure energy makes sense.


Except... the central gravitational field of a BH is caused by... matter!

A BH is one of the two time machines possible, allowing you to travel into the future, no less!




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 07:28


Well, because of E = Mc^2, really you can think of matter as 'condensed energy'.
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I'm NOT a math guy.

And that's the crux of all of these sorts of discussions. Without math, this thread will continue to go around in circles. Words aren't precise enough to get anywhere with the topics we're discussing. No amount of 'technobabble' will unify the fundamental forces.


Edit: damn 'sup' tags.

[Edited on 5-28-2015 by MrHomeScientist]
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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 07:40


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
No amount of 'technobabble' will unify the fundamental forces.




Damn! And I thought they got these GUTs just by technocackling about them! :D

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 10:23


You cannot have a perfect vacuum. If you do a universe will be created:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_genesis

I think this theory was disproven, but its kind of cool, the sum of everything is nothing.
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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 11:02


The basic problem is a misunderstanding of how stuff exists.

No, i don't have the answer either, nor any highly complex maths to back up that rash claim.

As i (currently) see it, the fundamental error is in that we expect to observe things in a framework (i.e. the one in which we also exist).

e.g. a sombrero'd cow walks into a bar ... (bar = framework)

Personally i feel that the existence of matter, energy, space are all exhibitions of a single complex system, and are not separate independent entities.

It also makes sense to my befumed brain that 'stuff' exists in all dimensions at once, and swaps proportions of it's expression in each dimension given certain conditions.

This not only requires said dimensions, but creates them, including Time.

From our Time-fixed standpoint it is impossible to see how things like Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle could ever work.

The particle is maybe just switching it's expression in the X, Y and/or Z without altering it's Time expression much.

The principle of Preservation of Matter/Energy seems sensible, so perhaps it is swapping some of it's XYZ expression for a bit of Electrical and/or Gravitational even Magnetic.

From Our viewpoint, it is in two (or many) places at once, as we are not free to move about in the Time dimension.

Edit

Forgot the Black Hole thing.

In BH conditions, particles swap XYZ and Time to Gravitic expression, plus a shed load of Electrical and Magnetic.

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 11:41


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
The basic problem is a misunderstanding of how stuff exists.

No, i don't have the answer either, nor any highly complex maths to back up that rash claim.

As i (currently) see it, the fundamental error is in that we expect to observe things in a framework (i.e. the one in which we also exist).



You should read (or watch) Slavoj Žižek. Seriously! (I always promote Žižek where I can, so here goes!)




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 11:44


I'll drink to that. Maybe not so far out there. I have long believed Bells Inequality as it pertains to the connection between an electron-positron pair created by the annihilation of a photon of energy hf >= 2*.511 Mev can be seen as a single entity in hyper-dimensions exhibiting two projections in local space-time which appear to time bound thinking entities to be two discrete particles which somehow seem to be 'talking' to each other. Or something like that. The most important question however is does Aga have a refrigerator in the shed. The thought of warm beer mixing with mad science is just too much to bear.




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:07


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  


Except... the central gravitational field of a BH is caused by... matter!




While I can not argue that is or is not so, it does not sound correct. It takes forces beyond what we can comprehend to create such an event. SOMETHING had to start this mechanism. I'm not much of a believer in "it just is".

Natural space for better lack of a word stands about as much of a chance of creating the mechanism as, well the the formation of a planet.

Perhaps that IS what a BH is. The seed of a new planet?


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Well, because of E = Mc^2, really you can think of matter as 'condensed energy'.

And that's the crux of all of these sorts of discussions. Without math, this thread will continue to go around in circles.




[Edited on 5-28-2015 by MrHomeScientist]



I figured E=MC2 would come into play at some point. By modifying both the mass, and the constant can you extrapolate resulting energy?

Say the mass is (x) at any pressure. Increasing pressure can not change the mass, only the volume. Increasing pressure will increase density, and therefore should do what? It should slow down the (c) correct? (if (c) is assumed to be the speed of light)

The results would indicate a reduced (e). That alone makes no sense. It takes energy to create pressure so that "theory" can not be correct.

Now if (c) were compared to the speed of sound... increasing density would increase the speed of sound.

If I thought about this long enough, and looked it all up I suppose I could make the model myself.

Matter = condensed energy... Hmmm. That could be so. Now amplify this process continuously. What would be the result?


Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
You cannot have a perfect vacuum. If you do a universe will be created:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_genesis

I think this theory was disproven, but its kind of cool, the sum of everything is nothing.



I didn't read the article yet but that is sort of where my thinking leads.
If the BH is the intake side, pulling in matter, then there HAS to be an output.
I suppose with the thought of "infinite pressure you could continue to compress matter into nothing but the resultant energy stored in that nothing would have to be immense. AKA the big bang?
Imagine releasing all of the stored energy, and matter... It could create a galaxy, no!


Quote: Originally posted by aga  


Personally i feel that the existence of matter, energy, space are all exhibitions of a single complex system, and are not separate independent entities.

It also makes sense to my befumed brain that 'stuff' exists in all dimensions at once, and swaps proportions of it's expression in each dimension given certain conditions.

This not only requires said dimensions, but creates them, including Time.


The principle of Preservation of Matter/Energy seems sensible, so perhaps it is swapping some of it's XYZ expression for a bit of Electrical and/or Gravitational even Magnetic.

From Our viewpoint, it is in two (or many) places at once, as we are not free to move about in the Time dimension.

Edit

Forgot the Black Hole thing.

In BH conditions, particles swap XYZ and Time to Gravitic expression, plus a shed load of Electrical and Magnetic.

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by aga]



The only thing I don't understand here is how time would effect anything in the maths.
Yes I get time changes the growing/shrinking parameters but that happens in a predictable fashion.

I don't understand how time could be a variable in a BH model. Same for the idea of other dimensions. Perhaps I have the wrong concept of the idea. I see other sides to an object but much like Schrödinger's cat I don't see all the available "realities" co-existing".
I see only only one reality being able to occupy the same space. The idea of different dimensions MUST include different space, and that seems far fetched to say the least.
Like saying I am somewhere infinite time over doing infinite different things. There is no logical conclusion to this thought.

My head hurts... :(




They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:10


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  


Except... the central gravitational field of a BH is caused by... matter!




While I can not argue that is or is not so, it does not sound correct. It takes forces beyond what we can comprehend to create such an event. SOMETHING had to start this mechanism. I'm not much of a believer in "it just is".



I'm not talking about the 'creation event'. Only that the intense gravity of a BH is caused by enormous amounts of mass contained in it. See the BH at the centre of our own Galaxy and the star system that orbits around it, obeying Kepler's Law perfectly.

See also Chandrasekhar limit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrasekhar_limit

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:18


See also the Evaporation of Black Holes, Hawkings.

Matter -> EM.

For the record, there is no fridge in the Shed.

Beer of whatever temperature under 56 C is fine (i paid for ALL the alcohols in it, not just the Ethanol)

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:21


"I don't understand how time could be a variable in a BH model"

Consider the inverse Gamma equation, which implies time slows down proportionately due to a gravitational field. We know this is fact from very advanced and precise experiments comparing earthbound and orbiting clocks. The stronger the gravity the slower the rate of time. Or from Einsteins perspective the greater the curvature (warping) of the fabric of space-time the slower the rate of time. Since gravity is understood to be a property of the BH model and since the gradient increases the closer one gets one can conclude the rate of time varies with the mass of the BH and the radius of the observer.




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:24


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
The only thing I don't understand here is how time would effect anything in the maths.

My model is at odds with the entirely of known science, so best to not pay it any attention.

Oh, apart from recognising that Time appears in most equations that relate to anything significant.

The Rate of blah etc. Event Horizon blah.




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:27


Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
implies time slows down proportionately due to a gravitational field

Or more simply, as Stuff expresses more in the Gravitational dimension, it correspondingly expresses Less in the Time dimension, conserving stuff-ness.

QED. Case Proven. Time for another warm beer.

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:27


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
The only thing I don't understand here is how time would effect anything in the maths.

My model is at odds with the entirely of known science, so best to not pay it any attention.



Motion seconded. :D




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:29


Many motions have been passed by the assembled illiminati, and most of those needed serious wiping to get clean.



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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:40


So, Black Holes and Time Travel.

No, still doesn't work in my model.

What *might* work is altering all of the Other dimensional expressions in a way that causes the Time dimension to shift.

E.g. bash a magnet on your head a lot while wrapped in cling film and sitting in a huge electrical field on a chair at a fairground ride.

Edit

Or just bash some weak magnets on 20 ton lumps of calcium carbonate and lift them with one finger, much as the Egyptians did.

This bloke re-discovered that trick :
http://coralcastle.com/

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:50


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
So, Black Holes and Time Travel.

No, still doesn't work in my model.



Two time machines:

1. orbit around a BH for a while. Acc. Einstein time slows down in a more intense gravitational field. Exp. verified.

2. drive on a train near the speed of light. Acc. Einstein time slows down near speed of light. Exp. verified too.




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:55


Aga you are messing up the core basis for one of my favorite Scifi series, Andromeda.




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:56


Imaginary experiments with derived maths, not actual experimentation.

Lorentz-Fitzgerald.

There was a young man from Fisk.
In love-making incredibly brisk.
So fast was his action
The Fitzgerald contraction
Shortened his foil to a disc.




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 12:59


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Imaginary experiments with derived maths, not actual experimentation.



NO, Sir, not so fast. Many, many, many, even very simple experiments have verified the Clevereststsetsets's Man's Theories.

Many, Many, Many.

Don't be a science denier. It's UGLY! :mad:

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 13:05


Special Relativity Experiments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 13:06


Many a really Close fit, yet not quite 100% what was expected.

When Building Knowledge, sometimes it is wise to dive back down to the roots and see if the original assumptions really do bear up to scrutiny, armed with the newly found knowledge.

"What goes Up must come Down"

Well, in certain circumstances Yes, however in Space ...

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 13:18


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Special Relativity Experiments:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by blogfast25]

"Eventually, Albert Einstein (1905) drew the conclusion that established theories and facts known at that time only form a logical coherent system when the concepts of space and time are subjected to a fundamental revision."

I agree. Time to do so again in the light of Albert's seriously clever doodlings.

[Edited on 28-5-2015 by aga]




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[*] posted on 28-5-2015 at 13:32


Next stop: Dark Matter and Dark Energy.



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