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[*] posted on 10-6-2015 at 06:21


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I don't think it [the Constitution] is even taught in schools anymore.

That's pretty blatantly false and alarmist, don't you think?
Yeah, don't worry Zombie, it's still taught, I just finished Government class and that's pretty much all it was. :)



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[*] posted on 10-6-2015 at 16:06


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I don't think it [the Constitution] is even taught in schools anymore.

That's pretty blatantly false and alarmist, don't you think?



I don't know, and no.

I don't know but a handful of people that can cite their Constitutional rights, and I know hundreds of people.

In fact I don't think I know one cop that is aware of his real legal rights, and I know several dozen cops that I see almost daily. (small town w/ three forces. City, county, and state agencies here) .I repair most of the boats these fellas own, and we talk about how they can say anything to anyone, and there are always two reactions. One is the person/people will believe whatever the cop spews out as LAW, and the other is they run or try to lie their way out of it.

If people knew their rights, they would also know that they do NOT have to answer any question from any cop ever.
You do not have to move along, you do not have to identify yourself. you do not have to "step out of the vehicle", you do not have to put the gun on the ground.
Ask if you are being detained, and inform them that you are an American citizen that knows his rights, and the legal boundaries of the police, even if they do not.

Will cops make up a charge that sounds good because you bruised their ego? Sure as hell they will. Is this legal? Sure as hell not.
Does it happen thousands of times a day in the US? YEP!
Does it piss me off? YEP!
Do people that know me know how I feel on this? You tell me.

The only thing blatant here is that fact that I don't care for BS, and I make that clear.




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[*] posted on 12-6-2015 at 10:02


Lol this picture is great!!! Thats what I call a sterilized Lab.
I agree with you guys, the only problem here I see is the disgusting lab, sodium hydroxide, sulfuric acid and EVEN HYDROGEN PEROXIDE(whats the big deal???) is used in a lot of food processing standarts as well as in medicine fabrication.
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[*] posted on 12-6-2015 at 12:18


Quote: Originally posted by fabio5546  
whats the big deal???


Indeed!
It exploits the ignorance or/and 'chemophobia' of the general populace and attempts to associate the drug with filth and deprivation... it's just standard fare propaganda.

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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 06:32


Citing your rights in front of a cop is like citing the employee handbook to a McDonald's employee about the number of pickles on your burger, saying that there should be two and not three and you know everything about McDonald'd food and demand it be corrected and that the rules should be changed or better enforced.

It just pisses everyone off. If you wish to find excuses to tout your legal rights to the fullest extent, then they too will exercise the rule of law to prosecute you to the fullest extent. Nobody wins.

If you can live with three pickles, fine. If you really have a problem with it, asking nicely will get the problem resolved. Sometimes it's better just to pick the damned pickle off yourself.

If we can put paranoia aside for a moment, consider that the legal system is designed to punish those outside the law. Judges are taught to uphold the spirit of the law and are only going to dig for psalm and verse if you make it difficult for them. If you are a presentable, well-educated person knowledgeable about the subject, in agreement with the expert witnesses, with no violations against you other than an accusation of narcotic manufacture, and have a clean drug test at the time of arrest, I see no way a jury can convict you.

Getting crazy about rights and such is going to imply to judge and jury that you're hiding something. You'll be scrutinized under a microscope, and perhaps convicted falsely just for being a toolbag. Frankly, I'm not sure that letting paranoid, argumentative people play with lab supplies is a good idea either.

I find that a lot of people who seem to always be on the soapbox about rights are just pissed because they like to do something illegal and feel threatened by every tiny thing that might compromise that. If you don't want to get convicted for manufacturing drugs, but still want a lab, you can't also do drugs. Life is not fair. Pay to play; that's how a country works. If you can't muster the fortitude to act like a grown-up, maybe you shouldn't be doing chemistry at home.

Unfortunately, the scientific mind is often very logical. We do not tend to consider the validity of the social "fudge factor" - the gray areas - in many of these things, looking at law as if it were followed algebraically every time, when this is nowhere near reality.


Edited for a grammar faux pas.

[Edited on 15-6-2015 by Praxichys]




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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 08:38


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
Citing your rights in front of a cop is like citing the employee handbook to a McDonald's employee about the number of pickles on your burger, saying that there should be two and not three and you know everything about McDonald'd food and demand it be corrected and that the rules should be changed or better enforced.

It just pisses everyone off. If you wish to find excuses to tout your legal rights to the fullest extent, then they too will exercise the rule of law to prosecute you to the fullest extent. Nobody wins.

If you can live with three pickles, fine. If you really have a problem with it, asking nicely will get the problem resolved. Sometimes it's better just to pick the damned pickle off yourself.

If we can put paranoia aside for a moment, consider that the legal system is designed to punish those outside the law. Judges are taught to uphold the spirit of the law and are only going to dig for psalm and verse if you make it difficult for them. If you are a presentable, well-educated person knowledgeable about the subject, in agreement with the expert witnesses, with no violations against you other than an accusation of narcotic manufacture, and have a clean drug test at the time of arrest, I see no way a jury can convict you.

Getting crazy about rights and such is going to imply to judge and jury that you're hiding something. You'll be scrutinized under a microscope, and perhaps convicted falsely just for being a toolbag. Frankly, I'm not sure that letting paranoid, argumentative people play with lab supplies is a good idea either.

I find that a lot of people who seem to always be on the soapbox about rights are just pissed because they like to do something illegal and feel threatened by every tiny thing that might compromise that. If you don't want to get convicted for manufacturing drugs, but still want a lab, you can't also do drugs. Life is not fair. Pay to play; that's how a country works. If you can't muster the fortitude to act like a grown-up, maybe you shouldn't be doing chemistry at home.

Unfortunately, the scientific mind is often very logical. We do not tend to consider the validity of the social "fudge factor" - the gray areas - in many of these things, looking at law as if it were followed algebraically every time, when this is nowhere near reality.


Edited for a grammar faux pas.

[Edited on 15-6-2015 by Praxichys]


You are absolutely right, Praxichys. The idea is that through the absence of evidence against you will be found innocent.

However, there are some grey areas regarding what could get you into trouble, and one of those is storage of hazardous chemicals on your property. The Newport News incident I posted about a while back said they were looking for hazardous chemicals. What does that mean? I think all chemicals are hazardous to the point where I don't let my children near them, and have cabinets for storage, a corrosives cabinet, etc. It is through such safety precautions that I hope to avoid a hazmat cleanup. :)
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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 10:07


Praxichys "Citing your rights in front of a cop is like citing the employee handbook to a McDonald's employee about the number of pickles on your burger, saying that there should be two and not three and you know everything about McDonald'd food and demand it be corrected and that the rules should be changed or better enforced.

It just pisses everyone off. If you wish to find excuses to tout your legal rights to the fullest extent, then they too will exercise the rule of law to prosecute you to the fullest extent. Nobody wins."

Clearly your major is not law considering cases ruled by the Supreme Court stating failure to cite your rights implies willful forfeiture of them. If I want a legal opinion I will not go to a fast food business, or you. Rights only survive the ages when one exercises them. Use it or lose it.




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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 10:16


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  


Unfortunately, the scientific mind is often very logical. We do not tend to consider the validity of the social "fudge factor" - the gray areas - in many of these things, looking at law as if it were followed algebraically every time, when this is nowhere near reality.


Edited for a grammar faux pas.

[Edited on 15-6-2015 by Praxichys]



This is what your post comes down to. Actually you are incorrect. No cop, lawyer, or judge can "fudge" the law or your rights.

This is exactly why I am PISSED, and every citizen of the world should be as well. Take the pickle weather you want it or not???
To hell with that notion.

Get arrested for public intoxication, and yet you never drank in your life. Let's say Heat Stroke caught you... Go to jail, get bailed out, appear in court with your 2000.00 dollar lawyer, and they agree to plea bargain vs. go to trial. Choice is accept the plea of disorderly conduct or spend another 2000.00 bucks, and another day in court OR take the pickle off yourself.

They should have kept the frigin' pickle in their bin, and never put it on you to begin with.

In this instance you have the RIGHT to be taken to the hospital, and confirm you have a medical condition. You never would have been taken to jail or court or any of that BS.
IF they deny or violate your rights. FIGHT BACK. Take thew offending agency to court, and buy a flag that covers your entire house. Hell buy the entire neighborhood, and set up a 24 hour Go-cart track. Don't eat their damn pickles just because they THINK they have to power here. They do not!
They work for US not each other, as complacency has them thinking.

Know your rights, stand up for your rights, and bring the wrath when they violate your rights.

As to those that wish to have cake, and eat it too... To hell w/ them. Drinking one beer, and driving is as guilty as drinking five. Make one beer, and driving a crime, and all the debate on how many pickles goes away.

Let's say you take MAOI's to live a decent life. You understand you can't eat cheese... so you dont'
If one beer is illegal unless you wait one hour.... WaiT!!! Make grown up choices, and you have the right to live, and let live.
make stupid choices, and remain part of the problem. It's simple really.

Sorry for the silly examples but I don't want to get pissed about this. The subject of our rights is getting out of control in America. When they can read your mail, record your conversations, and check your bank activity by pushing a button... Yeah I'm pissed. It is against the Constitution this country was founded on.




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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 12:28


IRC and Zombie - Yes, and I find those things just as disturbing.

I'd just rather risk some of my rights maintaining lubricity (and therefore leniency) with my local law enforcement rather than take the road of a rights activist and provoke my captors into searching for ways to punish me.

You pick the pickle off, you do extra work but you eat the burger. It was your right not to have to take it off, but hey, we all make mistakes. If you immediately blow up about regulations at them, they'll replace that pickle with spit at the first opportunity.

However noble it may be to defend rights, I make a much better chemist than an activist. As legal minorities in the home chemistry world, I feel better trying to slip through the cracks than to introduce legislation just for hobby chemists. We don't have enough manpower for that, and, let's face it - home chemistry PR is pretty terrible.

The law is "fudged" in something like 91% of small cases. Look up how many criminal cases these days end in plea bargains. If I end up in court for my lab, I'll just try to work a deal - drop any alleged narcotics charges in favor of some fines for improper storage of flammable materials, or something. As Loptr suggests: dotting your i's, crossing your t's, and keeping a good lab notebook will get you farther than kicking and screaming about your rights.

Technically what we do is illegal. If you have drain opener, matches, and camping fuel in the same room, intent to manufacture is already there according to the law as it stands. If you go down with the silent treatment and the "I know my rights" stance, you look very guilty to a whole lot of people, and someone is going to try and burn you. If you come off pleading as the innocent student, hobbyist, educator, clean-cut, well-behaved, eloquent, and drug-free, you might just get off the hook.

I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't always have to be a war, because the unfortunate reality is that we would all technically lose.




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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 12:52


I'd rather stand in front of my house armed to the teeth, than hide my weapons under the furniture.

Same for the precursor, and analog laws/acts. How do you PROVE what someone was or was not INTENDING to do?
You can assume but assumption is not a basis in law.

I get your point for sure. Don't rock the boat...

I'm the guy that shoots holes in the boat. If there is a law that is just, I obey it.
Draino, matches, and camping fuel??? I have all of those!

If one of my cop buddies asks to see, sure. Come on in.
If they have a warrant because I was at wally world, and bought them all at the same time? The reason for that analog act was an excuse to barge into your home. It is an assumption of intent. What judge in his right mind could follow the Constitution, and sign a warrant for assumption of intent? Where is this in the Constitution?

What is needed is a Class Action Law Suit against the United States Government.
WE the People have to get off our complacent arses, and act. WE have to change things or WE are all under the bus for good.

There are soo many grounds for such a suit that it would take generations to sort out all the cause/effect.
Will it ever happen?

NO! People will accept that extra pickle. Sheep!




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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 13:16


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
Getting crazy about rights and such...
This is not about "getting crazy", this is about fundamental civil rights that are the defining factors of a free society. These factors are not some random shit; they were slowly worked out over the last few centuries.

See http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/:
Quote:
Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

This means that you have a right to privacy in your home and it's nobody's business what you're doing there. Yes, under very special circumstances the government may interfere with that privacy, for example your house is burning or there is a strong suspicion that you are commiting a serious crime. This is such a fundamental right that every free society has very strict rules to avoid abuse by the authorities. Usually a warrant has to be issued by a judge and you have a right to one or more independent persons overseeing the search. And you have a right to be told exactly what you are accused of (including paper trail).

As a citizen of a free society it is your duty to defend these fundamental rights. Calling this "getting crazy" is a false dichotomy, because this can be handled perfectly calmly. Of course they will instantly switch to aggressive mode to make you feel insecure. Don't let that impress you; don't react by becoming cocky; call a lawyer and let the professional handle the situation.

I have a hard time believing that - even in Australia - a judge would issue a warrant for trivial glassware. The police were probably lying (so much about being "nice"). Basically OP was fucked over and should take it as a lesson how the system works. Next time be friendly, but get a copy of the warrant (if it exists), god damn it.

Quote:
I find that a lot of people who seem to always be on the soapbox about rights are just pissed because they like to do something illegal and feel threatened by every tiny thing that might compromise that. If you don't want to get convicted for manufacturing drugs, but still want a lab, you can't also do drugs.

Well that's the whole point why these rights are fundamental. Chemistry only for the submissive slave, but not for somebody who happens to grow a few socially unacceptable plants? That's ridiculous.

BTW, I doubt that blogfast, Zombie or IrC are the lowlife stoners you seem to insinuate. Your whole post was in an under-the-belt tone; no real arguments?
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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 13:46


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
IRC and Zombie - Yes, and I find those things just as disturbing.

I'd just rather risk some of my rights maintaining lubricity (and therefore leniency) with my local law enforcement rather than take the road of a rights activist and provoke my captors into searching for ways to punish me.

You pick the pickle off, you do extra work but you eat the burger. It was your right not to have to take it off, but hey, we all make mistakes. If you immediately blow up about regulations at them, they'll replace that pickle with spit at the first opportunity.

However noble it may be to defend rights, I make a much better chemist than an activist. As legal minorities in the home chemistry world, I feel better trying to slip through the cracks than to introduce legislation just for hobby chemists. We don't have enough manpower for that, and, let's face it - home chemistry PR is pretty terrible.

The law is "fudged" in something like 91% of small cases. Look up how many criminal cases these days end in plea bargains. If I end up in court for my lab, I'll just try to work a deal - drop any alleged narcotics charges in favor of some fines for improper storage of flammable materials, or something. As Loptr suggests: dotting your i's, crossing your t's, and keeping a good lab notebook will get you farther than kicking and screaming about your rights.

Technically what we do is illegal. If you have drain opener, matches, and camping fuel in the same room, intent to manufacture is already there according to the law as it stands. If you go down with the silent treatment and the "I know my rights" stance, you look very guilty to a whole lot of people, and someone is going to try and burn you. If you come off pleading as the innocent student, hobbyist, educator, clean-cut, well-behaved, eloquent, and drug-free, you might just get off the hook.

I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't always have to be a war, because the unfortunate reality is that we would all technically lose.


Some very good points. Reason, politeness, discretion at all times. This has helped me in times past go on my way quickly. Police are people too and as such simple human nature takes precedence at the moment when one is being confronted. Being an activist in such situations is irritating to all of sound mind, that is those subject to reason. One must weigh the situation. There is a time to stand on your rights but this must be tempered with the facts of the current situation. If I were LEO just doing my job (and not starting with a bad attitude, also having a history of blatantly ignoring the rights of the citizen) and someone gets rude and annoying for no just cause my first reaction will be to oppose aggression with the same attitude.

How to define these limits is fluid most of the time but discretion is the better part of valor (or is it a kind word turneth away much wrath). In the OP's situation he politely answered questions using intelligence and reason, with the result being they determined this was a simple student interested in science as opposed to someone conducting criminal activity. Imagine what would have resulted had he been all up in their faces demanding his rights be respected. They had a warrant if it had been needed so under the law not only did they not violate his 'rights', they acted politely, professionally, and went on their way in peace. I imagine a sane experimenter would always wish for this outcome.

When they are already violating your rights, going to charge you with unfounded charges, then you stand on your rights. As Praxichys noted this does in effect result in their escalating the situation due to simple human nature but there is a point where one to protect themselves must invoke their rights or when it comes to trial it can be ruled you already surrendered them. This has happened many times in the past. When they arrest you I would say its time to remain silent and demand legal council. Technically the OP made a mistake in not refusing a search unless they presented a warrant but at the same time Praxichys is correct this invariably escalates the situation. Hard to say if the OP's actions were either correct or incorrect from a legal view yet the outcome was positive. I have no doubt it would not have been positive had he acted differently that how he did. In effect for this situation the best thing he could have done was not demand his rights be respected. His story of events appears to reinforce this idea. So maybe one must be sharp, observant, play it by ear. They were polite and respectful right from the start and were merely trying to determine what was going on with the glassware he ordered. Kindness should always be rewarded with kindness, respect with respect.

If he would have had say 2 or 3 (or more) precursors under the law he may be screwed under any circumstances yet showing the documentation of legitimate use of said items maintaining the attitude he had this time could still possibly result in a good outcome for him because it is up to the investigators how they are going to proceed. Obviously pissing them off is a bad idea even in one is within their rights. Due to the current 'atmosphere' virtually everywhere in the world, home experimenters start out with a big disadvantage in terms of their legal 'rights'.

I have no doubt a room full of lawyers would come up with as many different versions of how one should conduct themselves in these situations as there are lawyers in the room. Mainly because politics and public opinion has created a very serious 'grey area' concerning the legal standing of anyone outside of some government approved laboratory conducting chemical experiments. It sucks but there it is, put simply I do not think there is any good answer (*for this narrow discussion of home chemistry) as to what is the correct way to act when confronted by LEO at your home laboratory other than what has been mentioned by Praxichys and others here as well as in previous threads on this subject.

* I say this because the point zombie was bringing up covers virtually all areas or situations and this may not be the best approach for home chemists due to the 'grey area' politicization has created for home science in general.




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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 15:39


I have to wonder how this would have turned out in the US. It seems that the citizenry-police relationship varies a lot depending on location. Pyro (Netherlands) gives examples of good relations he has with the local police.

Some time ago I tried to be friendly with some cops at a Starbucks while sipping a latte. They seemed cold and didn't seem to want to talk with me. Now, because of recent events they seem to want to develop good relations with those they are sworn to serve. They do this with formal "get to know your police" programs. I think they would be better off just talking to us at Starbucks. I have no desire to go to one of their formal programs and have my name put on a list.




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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 17:06


I posted about the neighbors "missing kid".

When they started knocking on doors, I invited them in.

Yes you all are 100% correct that discretion in a given situation is the best of all choices. If I lived in DC or NYC I would NOT have let them in even if my head were on fire.
It is all a fluid thing as Irc says.

What gets me is the fact that your internet, mail, phone, credit/debit are all monitored. The tactic is to watch shipments from certain vendors, and demand customer lists or be seized.
How is this played legally? It's not!
Who has the money to stop them?

Ups bowed down to 40 million dollars in fines to escape prosecution for "Aiding, and Abetting".
FedEx is not caving in, and going to court on that same charge.
USPS is supplying the information requested as a government agency.

How high up on the "list" do you think a fella like me is? I google everything, and anything. I post key words by the thousands. I buy what I want when I want.

The fact of the matter is, the strongest "drug" in my house is a bottle of FireBall Whiskey in the freezer.
Another fact here is EVERYTHING you own came from some fashion of science. Even that pretty coffee table. 17 coats of hand rubbed urethane, and 5 coats of wax. Your socks? jeans? The key to your door?

And they have the stones to say an amateur scientist has no place in society? Making a great cup of tea is a science project!!!
It's the fact that THEY watch us, and have NO laws to do so until THEY make one up, and do so with NO input from the general public. The very people that put them in power to SERVE US!

Now we serve them. The machine has taken control of itself, and it is feeding on its creators. US!
Where do your tax dollars go?




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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 20:41


First and foremost you should always be polite to people with guns rather they deserve it or not. Similarly people with the authority not necessarily the right should also be dealt with politely. Even if all you have to say to them is may I please call a lawyer. As in most things there is a time and place to assert your rights. It is up to each individual to determine when that is. And it is different in different countries. And it also differs between districts in the US. In Texas for example having a Pyrex coffee pot is sufficient to get you jail time. In California possessing lye has the same effect. In other states to varying degrees there are rebuttal presumption rules, like having camping fuel, matches and Sudafed. You could have allergies and be planning a camping trip, but if you have four hundred boxes of matches the burden is on you to explain why you are removing the strikers. You may have rights but don't assume they will be respected. But also don't roll over and let them pineapple you a la 'little nicky'. Pick your battles and stay off the radar.
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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 21:01


I agree that the situation is highly dependent on location. In my home country (not here) police don't even routinely carry guns. (Why would they need them? Shooting people is not a normal part of the job!)

Every little thing that contributes to the legal and/or cultural status of the situation is a factor that also contributes to what constitutes and appropriate response. This is what makes Tdep's experience so encouraging. Common sense prevailed.

Now I fully understand (ok, fully appreciate) the comments made by our American friends. But the fact is that that attitude does not translate well to a different cultural context. The kind of stance advocated by Zombie would be considered over the top and would likely be deleterious and not beneficial.

There are times when I am thankful that I don't live in the US.
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[*] posted on 15-6-2015 at 21:21


Why do you think they call me Zombie sir?

I've had to fight (fists or words) my entire life. You get tired of seeing abuses every day for decades, and I live a relatively peaceful life. It's all the little things like someone hitting a kid or beating a dog, and I have to pay for their welfare to support them.
The same drunk everyday at the same bar, and yet he NEVER catches a DUI. The dope dealer that doesn't get busted because he's the local deputies son. The local deputy that gets a misdemeanor charge after being caught red handed stealing from local boat storage yards.
The city commissioner that passes zoning to help friends, and gets paid on both ends to do so.
The uncle of another commissioner that builds 8 buildings on one property without a single permit.
The mother of the Chief of police that gets free asphalt on her driveway. The NEW chief that retires after 2 years, and collects a pension on MY dime.
The local hardware or IGA that sell at triple the price because the next closest stores are a 40 mile trip.

Knock Knock!
Who's there?
I KNOW my attitude sucks. I'm the one that lives with it. All day every day. Everywhere I look.

I've been looking for a venue to help correct all this crap. If anyone has a suggestion... I'm all ears, and ready.

[Edited on 6-16-2015 by Zombie]




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Tdep
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[*] posted on 16-6-2015 at 01:46


Heh, Zombie, my gosh do we disagree. Would still love to see your opinion on the topical Australian issue of the government deciding to outlaw bikie gangs though. Article

Quote:

Currently, anyone who associated with a member of a "declared" organisation more than six times in a year would face up to five years' jail.

Under Queensland law, people who commit a serious offence while participating in a criminal organisation could spend 15 years in jail on top of their sentence for the original offence.

It was now also an offence for three or more members of a declared criminal organisation to knowingly meet in public or to work in certain industries such as tattooing.
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[*] posted on 16-6-2015 at 09:56


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I agree that the situation is highly dependent on location. In my home country (not here) police don't even routinely carry guns. (Why would they need them? Shooting people is not a normal part of the job!)

Every little thing that contributes to the legal and/or cultural status of the situation is a factor that also contributes to what constitutes and appropriate response. This is what makes Tdep's experience so encouraging. Common sense prevailed.

Now I fully understand (ok, fully appreciate) the comments made by our American friends. But the fact is that that attitude does not translate well to a different cultural context. The kind of stance advocated by Zombie would be considered over the top and would likely be deleterious and not beneficial.

There are times when I am thankful that I don't live in the US.


I also have to add that this situation could have also been highly age-dependent. I am sure it is how you say it is in Australia for the most part, but I am not ruling out the same can't happen there, especially if politicians start becoming the target of public's outcry for them to do something about a problem...

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by Loptr]
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[*] posted on 16-6-2015 at 10:16


I fully agree with Zombie and I even havent been yet in america where this problem seems to be even worse.
Its not about doing legal or illegal stuff (and to be honest, which hobby chemic hasnt done things which are at least on the edge???) Even distilling your own CH3CH2OH is forbidden by law in most countries and you could get busted for it.
I lived half of my life in brazil and the other in germany, two extreme opposites, but in both countries police isnt worth a cent! Full of arrogant, power-abusing grown up loosers which are frustated from all the bullying they suffered and want revenge on society.
If you really need them you are screwed, happened to me in saint, fully-correct and functional germany! In Brazil they are worse than the deliquents, those at least "only" want your money, and wont be profiling themselves using your powerlessness against the great law!
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[*] posted on 16-6-2015 at 13:12


Corruption, and hypocrisy are the real issues in my way of looking at it. You have to have pure motives in passing a law. Collecting payment for supporting a bill is not a pure motive, yet it is allowed to continue. Not legaly but under the table. Your community gets a new park IF you vote to outlaw lab glass.
The same is true all across the board. Right down to the cops that enforce the laws. We hang out in the back yard, drinking beer, and doing shots till the firewood is gone. maybe 1-2 in the morning. Guess who gets in the car to drive home... Not me! I stay put or catch a ride w/ a sober driver BUT the local cop, gets in his STATE owned truck, and drives home. With a hardy Hi Ho Silver... They can't arrest me!

Live by the law or don't. There is NO GRAY AREA HERE!

Make just laws or don't. NO GRAY!

The Aus bike laws are the same as US RICO statutes. If there is not a specific crime to arrest you for, they made up a law. RICO.

What happened to the right to free assembly?

Now I have to say that some of the 1%rs out there deserve to go to prison forever. If they are posers? Send them anyway. You don't want real or pretend murderers running free.

If you wear a patch? How is this a crime? I know some bad ass bikers that I do NOT associate with. Friends of friends, ect... In the same club(s) there are some of the nicest people that you will ever meet. I know one fella that has had his door open to everyone that needs a place to stay for as long as they need to stay. He goes to church every Sunday, and gives to the church.
Yet if he were caught riding with 3 buddies in Aus. they throw him in prison?

Who made that law? The minister that supported his village with cocaine kick backs? Or was it the one that screwed underage girls... while his wife raised HIS kids.

Goose, and gander. Good for one is fair for the other. How about IF your political party has committed a crime ie: Nixon. The party is declared an outlaw organization, and anyone caught maintaining that party is a criminal. Sound fair? To ME it does. 100% fair!

Does the world work this way? You tell me.

Why not?




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[*] posted on 17-6-2015 at 20:13


The US RICO act requires certain crimes to be committed and there to be a certain relationship between the people committing them. The Australian law sounds a little over the top. In the US there is also the patriot act, but its provisions requires that the 'terrorist organization' be 'foreign'. So no matter how repugnant a domestic organization is, you can't be prosecuted for just being a member. You have to agree to participate in a felony and commit overt acts in furtherance of the crime to be prosecuted. Usual I am not a lawyer disclaimer.
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[*] posted on 18-6-2015 at 15:15


Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
In Texas for example having a Pyrex coffee pot is sufficient to get you jail time. In California possessing lye has the same effect.

I think that statement is a little alarmist, the laws are not actually that strict. Texas may ban most glassware but you would not go to jail for possesing a coffee pot. In California I have had no trouble buying lye over the counter. I agree that some laws are unjust, but building up a strawman argument is not the answer to this problem.
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[*] posted on 18-6-2015 at 20:34


Quote: Originally posted by Fenir  
Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
In Texas for example having a Pyrex coffee pot is sufficient to get you jail time. In California possessing lye has the same effect.

I think that statement is a little alarmist, the laws are not actually that strict. Texas may ban most glassware but you would not go to jail for possesing a coffee pot. In California I have had no trouble buying lye over the counter. I agree that some laws are unjust, but building up a strawman argument is not the answer to this problem.
. I thought borosilicate/ lab glass was banned without license in Texas?
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[*] posted on 18-6-2015 at 23:45


That alone is a restriction with no basis in reality. Dope dealers/manufacturers do NOT walk into Science "R" us, and order lab glass on their credit card.

Robbers, rapists, murders do not go to WalMart, and buy guns.

They steal the crap or buy it from someone that did. For glass they will be breaking into real labs, and universities. Not Buco's house on 123 Main st.

Another fact is the small fry guy that makes for his buddies, and a few bucks is using soda bottles, not glass. Glass is too dangerous. It breaks!

The entire vision of home chemistry is sooooooo screwed up that it is really a no win situation.
The big suppliers are not dealing with home labs. The on line suppliers are being monitored, and very often harassed for their customer records.
The shipping companies are being brought to court on real serious charges, and all a guy wants to do is make something fun, cool, useful, or unique.

I get it because I see how many people come here looking to make drugs. There are quite a few. I'd personally love to make drugs but there are none that interest me. Well DMT is interesting but Ytube has everything you need to know, and all you need is a turkey baster, and a freezer.

Maybe the world is F'd?

I'll just play w/ my dogs, drink a few beers, and make the occasional bon fire. forget about it!




They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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