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Praxichys
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Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  |
| Quote: |
Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl |
I think that because you're not isolating or claiming CuCl2 as a product twice, this is allowed.
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Thank you.
What about solid intermediates? How about :
Cu carbonate + HNO3 -> Cu nitrate
Cu nitrate + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + HCl -> Cu chloride
Cu chloride + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + HOAc -> Cu acetate
Cu acetate + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + H2SO4 -> Cu sulfate
and so on.
If this violates a rule about isolating intermediates, can I use sand as an insoluble solid diluent to get around this?
I have a really great plan. Not sure if I'm going to participate or not, but I gave a really, really good plan. 
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DraconicAcid
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| Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys | | Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid |
| Quote: |
Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl |
I think that because you're not isolating or claiming CuCl2 as a product twice, this is allowed.
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Thank you.
What about solid intermediates? How about :
Cu carbonate + HNO3 -> Cu nitrate
Cu nitrate + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + HCl -> Cu chloride
Cu chloride + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + HOAc -> Cu acetate
Cu acetate + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + H2SO4 -> Cu sulfate
and so on.
If this violates a rule about isolating intermediates, can I use sand as an insoluble solid diluent to get around this?
I have a really great plan. Not sure if I'm going to participate or not, but I gave a really, really good plan. |
I suspect that if you filter it out or isolate it by centrifuge, that would violate the spirit of the rules.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Volanschemia
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| Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys | I have two questions:
(Question 1) Can we supplement yields with reagents we already have, or do we need to do the first reactions on a massive scale so we
have some material to work with at the end?
Example:
1. I make tetraamine copper II nitrate
2. I convert it to basic copper II carbonate
3. I convert the carbonate to the chloride with HCl.
As long as I demonstrate that basic carbonate can be made from TACN, can I add basic carbonate I already have to boost the starting quantity
in reaction 3? Is the spirit of the chain to use the SAME copper ions for the whole chain, or to show a chain of reactions? |
Yes, you can. But there is nothing stopping you also using your synthesized compound either. Either is legal.
| Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys |
(Question 2) The rules clearly state that the same compound cannot be used twice. To clarify, the following is illegal,
correct?
1. Cu + HCl + H2O2 -> CuCl2
2. CuCl2 + H3PO4 -> Cu3(PO4)2
3. Cu3(PO4)2 + (HCl + NaF) -> CuF2
Because step 3 can be broken into:
Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl
Because even if this was done first:
HCl + NaF <->> HF + NaCl
Cu3(PO4)2 + HF <->> CuF2 + H3PO4
This would still exist in equilibrium:
NaCl + Cu3(PO4)2 <-> CuCl2 + Na(n)PO4(x) |
The first reaction is illegal, the second one is legal. Since in the first one you are deliberately making CuCl2 for the purpose of turning it into
CuF2, whereas in the second one, you are converting Cu3(PO4)2 directly to CuF2. Does that answer your question?
Compounds of copper and another metal in the 0 oxidation state, such as CuZn or Cu6Sn5.
| Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys |
Thank you.
What about solid intermediates? How about :
Cu carbonate + HNO3 -> Cu nitrate
Cu nitrate + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + HCl -> Cu chloride
Cu chloride + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + HOAc -> Cu acetate
Cu acetate + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + H2SO4 -> Cu sulfate
and so on.
If this violates a rule about isolating intermediates, can I use sand as an insoluble solid diluent to get around this?
I have a really great plan. Not sure if I'm going to participate or not, but I gave a really, really good plan. |
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you making Copper Carbonate in all of these steps and then converting it to a new compound each time,
only to convert it back to Copper Carbonate and use it again? Because that is definitely not allowed.
I look forward to you entry Praxichys if you enter.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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DraconicAcid
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Just made a copper compound that was a brilliant yellow. I'm happy enough about it that I had to brag. 
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Volanschemia
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Great! I'm looking forward to seeing the wide array of colours in the photos of everyone's compounds. I might make a collage of the best ones and
put it in the Pretty Pictures thread (crediting each photo to the appropriate person of course).
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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DraconicAcid
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| Quote: Originally posted by TheAustralianScientist |
Great! I'm looking forward to seeing the wide array of colours in the photos of everyone's compounds. I might make a collage of the best ones and
put it in the Pretty Pictures thread (crediting each photo to the appropriate person of course). |
Oh, yes, I can't wait to see all the different shades of blue and greenish-blue that copper will give us.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Volanschemia
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Plus red, purple and going off you, yellow!
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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j_sum1
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Don't forget the brick red and black colours possible with Cu(I).
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Volanschemia
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Indeed.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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mayko
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... just when I'd finished cleaning up after the last copper carnival....
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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DraconicAcid
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Question. Is it possible to react one copper compound with another to make a third?
Such as:
A -> B
B -> C
C + B -> D
(Where A, B, C, and D all contain copper.)
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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Volanschemia
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| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | Question. Is it possible to react one copper compound with another to make a third?
Such as:
A -> B
B -> C
C + B -> D
(Where A, B, C, and D all contain copper.) |
Yes, that is valid. As long as the next compound is made from the previous one.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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Volanschemia
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Just letting everyone know, I will be away from 12th to 14th June.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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The Chemistry Shack
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Can we make salts with a metal cation and an anion containing copper (like the tetrahydroxy-cuprate ion)?
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j_sum1
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TAS is away for a bit (see post above) but I believe that what you propose is entirely within the rules.
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Volanschemia
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Hey, I'm back! How's everyone going with their Copper chains?
Yup, that's fine.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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mayko
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| Quote: |
Complexes are permitted if they have a name and are verified. If a complex that cannot be verified is created as an intermediate to a verified
compound; that is acceptable as long as the unverified complex is not counted.
(ie. When making Chevreul's salt from CuSO4 and Na2S2O5, an unknown green complex is created preceding the formation of Chevreul's salt, this complex
cannot be counted, but is permitted as an intermediate).
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Conversely, suppose a compound in the chain (perhaps not a complex) was distinct and described in the literature, but so unstable as to be necessarily
transient. Would this add to the total count? (And how would the rules re: photography and documentation apply, if so?)
[Edited on 22-6-2015 by mayko]
al-khemie is not a terrorist organization
"Chemicals, chemicals... I need chemicals!" - George Hayduke
"Wubbalubba dub-dub!" - Rick Sanchez
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The Volatile Chemist
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Just saw this competition, gonna get started right away! Very Exciting, as the monetary part/incentive does not require donation, which I could not
supply. I'm already formulating a wonderful plan. Just checking, may the sequence contain other transition metals whom are oxidized/complexed?
Thanks for doing this, by the way. This is the best competition I've seen yet.
Oh this is so hilarious! I hope everyone who's seen Sharknado recalls that "Agagagag" is the sound a shark makes when a propane bottle is shoved into
its mouth
[Edited on 6-22-2015 by The Volatile Chemist]
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Volanschemia
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| Quote: Originally posted by mayko |
Conversely, suppose a compound in the chain (perhaps not a complex) was distinct and described in the literature, but so unstable as to be necessarily
transient. Would this add to the total count? (And how would the rules re: photography and documentation apply, if so?)
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I think I will have to draw the line at chain links that can be photographed, which means compounds that can't be photographed are not permitted.
However, I will allow the unstable compound as an intermediate to a "photographable" compound as long as it is not counted as a part of the chain,
similar to the undocumented complex rule.
| Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist | Just saw this competition, gonna get started right away! Very Exciting, as the monetary part/incentive does not require donation, which I could not
supply. I'm already formulating a wonderful plan. Just checking, may the sequence contain other transition metals whom are oxidized/complexed?
Thanks for doing this, by the way. This is the best competition I've seen yet.
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Thanks TVC! I'm glad you like it and that you plan to participate. If by your question, you mean can compounds in the sequence contain other
transition metals as well as copper (ie. Double Salts, complexes), then yes, as long as it is not an intermetallic (ie. CuZn). However it must
contain copper in all compounds.
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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The Volatile Chemist
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Cool. Would you be mad if I didn't collect like half of the compounds in my string of reactions(i.e. used a different source after the reaction?) How
would the yields stuff work if I did this? I'm U2Uing a question to you, too.
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gatosgr
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So lets say I make CuX + Cl2 -> CuCl2 can I use CuX again or should I use CuCl2?
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Texium
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You'll have to use CuCl2. Using CuX again would violate the rule about not repeating compounds. Otherwise you could just make a bunch of
copper carbonate and dissolve little bits of it in every acid you can get your hands on, and that would make this competition rather boring.
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Volanschemia
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| Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist | | Cool. Would you be mad if I didn't collect like half of the compounds in my string of reactions(i.e. used a different source after the reaction?) How
would the yields stuff work if I did this? I'm U2Uing a question to you, too. |
Do you mean like if you made Copper(II) Sulphate in a reaction, can you use Copper(II) Sulphate from a jar for the next reaction? If so, then yes,
you can. Yields still apply, theoretical maximum and if you dry the compound, the actual yield.
No, you can't use CuX because that's not the product of the previous reaction, and it also violates the rule about only using a compound once. It's
perfectly fine to use CuCl2 for the next reaction however (as long as you haven't used it previously).
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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Volanschemia
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So we have a week left until the competition deadline. Is everyone entering ok with that amount of time?
"The chemists are a strange class of mortals, impelled by an almost insane impulse to seek their pleasures amid smoke and
vapor, soot and flame, poisons and poverty; yet among all these evils I seem to live so sweetly that may I die if I were to change places with the
Persian king" - Johann Joachim Becher, 1635 to 1682.
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The Volatile Chemist
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Yeah. I certainly won't have the originally planned 17 reaction chain, but I'll be fine
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