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Author: Subject: Idiots with chemicals
lordmagnus
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Idiots with chemicals

Yesterday the Texas City, TX police and FBI had to do a detonation in place in an apt. building, where the day before to idiots playing around with PEROXIDE BASED EXPLOSIVES managed to set some off, and kill one of the two kids playing with it. Turns out they were using the Hydrogren peroxide and Acetone synthesis, and they didn't cool the mixture very effectively. This sort of foolishness is what makes it hard for the rest of us, even those who are not working with explosives, and hazards reactions to continue our work without notice or ridicule.

**UPDATE**
Turns out it wasn't the synthesis that caused the explosion, they had stored some in a container, the survivor said the explosion occured when the other guy went to remove some from the container (FRICTION TRIGGERED). The roommate who survived is being held for a misdemeanor false police report, and a 3rd deg. felony, possesion of explosives without permits. (see picture below)

[Edited on 7/21/2006 by lordmagnus]

[Edited on 7/21/2006 by lordmagnus]

I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably over a good woman.

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woelen

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Yes, this indeed is very bad, most of course to the family of the involved person(s), but also for all of us. In the city, where I live, a year ago or something like that, suddenly many k3wls liked to make so-called crofty bombs (I don't go into details here). One of the ingredients was NaOH. After a few incidents with these crofty bombs, many shops were hesitant to sell NaOH, especially to young male persons. There even was a short discussion about prohibiting the sale of NaOH, but fortunately that discussion died away quickly after the incidents with crofty bombs stopped. But you see how easily a certain very useful chemical can be taken from the shelves because of some stupid actions of stupid k3wls.

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Chris The Great
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Yeah, the synthesis is pretty tame. It's events like these that make me avoid peroxides in any sort of quantity.

It's a real shame isn't it, either they stay alive and cause havoc, or they die and cause havoc. Either way we lose every time a k3wl is born.

I imagine it must have been quite a bit to kill the kid when exploding while unpressed. But how did some of the material survive the initial explosion?
lordmagnus
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They had several containers of it through out the whole apt. including detonators of other types in one closet, and bombs in another. The kid that survived is connected with an anarchist group.

I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably over a good woman.

-Jayne Cobb (Serenity)

neutrino
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Anarchist group? Tame political party type anarchists, rabid anti-government nutjobs, or ABC-style lamers?

Magpie
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We shall always have kewls among us. Their like indulge in all types of risky behaviour. Take for example their abuse of automobiles, such as drag racing, drunk driving, etc. However, this behaviour never in the slightest threatens the availability of the automobile to the general public. It's just so damn easy and politically correct to stand up and say that we must ban the sale of a given chemical to the public. "Think of the children ...blahblahblah."

The best we can do is to educate and counsel our kewls. I know that they feel invulnerable and therefore need not listen to anyone, but we still must try. I feel that this forum does a good job of this, i.e., protecting our own, warning about dangerous reactions, etc.

Now making peroxides for bombs for terrorism is a whole different matter. Those kewls deserve what they get.

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
mrjeffy321
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I would think there would be some type of news story about it, however brief, especially if someone died from the accident.
The_Davster
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As much as this is common sense, we need to bring back personal responsibility. Back in the day, as I understand it, if some kid broke a law, for example, broke a window, he would be punished and blamed for it. These days we get the sort of bull like 'he had a bad childhood and is lashing out at society for it, he shouldent be punished as he has suffered enough'. When will people learn that if people want to endanger themselves its not a problem, if they endanger others they should be punished, but what they used to endanger others should not be outlawed. It is again the old arguement of 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' but with chemicals.

EDIT: If these people were terrorists, they deserve whatever they get.

[Edited on 22-7-2006 by rogue chemist]

Organikum
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The kids need a decent education as they are obviously a little bit misguided but interested and able to pull something up whats more then you can say of most adults nowadays. Restriction? Punishment? Well they are punished enough I would say and restriction is nonsense - guidance is whats needed.

The parents though need a kick into the ass and strict monitoring as they are obviously incompetent. Somebody who is not able to have a little bit a eye on their kids is a danger to society and must be watched.

/ORG

[c]Irgendwas is ja immer[/c]
lordmagnus
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Yeah, it's about 15 miles south of webster

 Quote: Originally posted by mrjeffy321 What city was this? In your home town of Webster, TX? I would think there would be some type of news story about it, however brief, especially if someone died from the accident.

The NYCFD (New York Fire Dept) came down to analyze the scene, since this type of explosive is very rarely used, they wanted to get a good profile on the kinda damage it does. Check google new for the keyword { texas city, apartment, explosion} Check my original post, I put up a pic of the blown out apartment you can download, show dump trucks in front incase the explosion was really big, they could absorb some of the shock.

I\'ll kill a man in a fair fight, or if I think he is gonna start a fair fight, or if he\'s bothrn me allot, or if I am getin payed good, or probably over a good woman.

-Jayne Cobb (Serenity)

YT2095
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What were they storing this stuff for anyway?

I rem when I was a K3wl back in the late 70s early 80s you couldnt wait for the TCAP or HMTA to dry so you gould go out and blow the crap out of some tree stumps or rocks etc...
Storing it was unheard of!

makes me question if they were K3wlz / Terrorists or bloody Idiots!?

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
chemoleo
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 Quote: FBI officials said they were forced to detonate the explosive inside the Texas City apartment because it was too unstable to move. The detonation caused a small fire inside the apartment. The FBI could not immediately identify the explosive but believed it was mixed in the apartment.

They say it was TATP. http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/khou060719_mh_aptexpl...

I just don't understand why, if there was this material about, it couldnt be quenched with copious amounts of water/NaOH, to be drained into a container set for disposal by chemical means.

Not for the first time, I wonder whether feds (that goes for all in the western world essentially, but particularly in the US since they like to be dramatic) just like to play with toys, and deem a 'controlled explosion' safer than quenching, since this is what they are paid and trained for. Come on! Even if it was in plastic jars, they could submerge this into a water tank, and carry it outside, to detonate it at some other place!

[Edited on 24-7-2006 by chemoleo]

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Nicodem
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What kind of idiots these police officials are? They could easily offer this whole thing as the usual present for the president. I don’t get it why didn’t they just accuse the survivor that he and his dead friend wanted to blow up some government building, instead of only spreading rumors of “their affiliation to this anarchist group”? Why doing such a sloppy work? With the new legislature they could put him in jail without letting the relatives or anybody near him. They could even ship him to Guantanamo and make a huge terrorist story out of it. I mean, they already made it look like they had a factory of acetone peroxide in their apartment, with all that action, evacuation and blowing up the apartment. Why the hell didn’t they use this for one of the usual scare stories for the US brainwashed zombies? Everybody would believe it, no doubts about that. Seams like sometimes even the US officials are unpredictable or just stupid enough to miss such nice opportunity. Or perhaps these boys were actually affiliated with some governmental agency? Hm, Texas? Perhaps they are distant relatives of somebody in high position? Let’s see, they were obsessed with blowing things up, were not particularly clever and potentially affiliated with terrorism. Sounds like a familiar genetic trait for a certain (in)famous family from Texas.
Well, nevertheless I feel sorry for the one that died. There was no need for such a tragic end. I hope it serves as a lesson to other kewls (though I doubt any will learn from it), but mostly I hope it won’t serve as a lesson to for the officials to put more control on OTC chemicals (only because all the bad innovations in the US tends to move over to Europe sooner or later).

“Right now our focus is to get these chemicals under control,” said Chief Burby.

…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)

not_important
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Well, he's in the hands of the Feds now, so the story may change to more what you suggest
http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=95ce0dbe...

Like that quote from chief Burby; Texas - register glassware, not guns. The locals never stop to think that once all the mad chemists are under control, the authorities might be looking for new threat. Not to mention the fun they'll have controlling access to acetone or IPA and hydrogen peroxide. End up like Japan, want H2O2 for an infected cut and you'll have to buy it as individual 5 ml doses.
The_Davster
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Well, this guys stupitity is causing more fallout:
http://ww.khou.com/news/local/houstonmetro/stories/khou06072...

View into the minds of sheeple:
http://ww.khou.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15639

Links must have an extra w in the www part.

[Edited on 26-7-2006 by rogue chemist]

chemoleo
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But at lease the article is fair on the note of censorship:
 Quote: Selway also says bomb-making manuals floating in cyberspace make his job tougher. “As a bomb tech and HAZMAT guy we have to stay one step ahead, so we’re constantly staying on the Internet, trying to figure out what these guys are doing,” Selway said. Over the years calls have been made to ban this type of information from the Internet. “We have created a technology which far outruns the available laws to control that technology,” said UH Professor Garth Jowett. Prof. Jowett teaches Communications History at the university. Risk or not, he doesn’t believe in censorship. “Censorship is a very slippery slope. What may start today with banning the anarchist’s cookbook, may end up tomorrow banning somebody’s political thought,” Jowett said. It’s a new reality in a brave new world.

Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
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Chris The Great
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And, after they ban H2O2, someone will realize that the oxyclean stuff is even more concentrated anyway
Magpie
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Rogue that link to the sheeple discussion is funny. Rednecks commenting on kewls - that's a great combination.

[Edited on 27-7-2006 by Magpie]

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
YT2095
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to go a little further, how about banning Table salt, Icing sugar and electricity!?

Weedkiller and Sugar bombs were almost a hallmark of the IRA in the 70s late 80s.

there is NO SUCH THING as a "Bomb making chemical(s)" as soon as they Realise that, and actualy attack the PROBLEM itself (largely Ignorance), it`ll never end.

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
jimwig
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air, water and shit.

ban those. nobody needs them. and it would certainly stop all the would be terrorists not to mention Texas idiots who haven't a clue what they are talking about. not to mention the human race.

freedom is not free. nor should it be.

oh I should mention the reason for shit. most effective if input is allowed with no chance of release.

[Edited on 27-7-2006 by jimwig]
Misanthropy
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Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
 Quote: F Not for the first time, I wonder whether feds (that goes for all in the western world essentially, but particularly in the US since they like to be dramatic) just like to play with toys, and deem a 'controlled explosion' safer than quenching, since this is what they are paid and trained for. Come on! Even if it was in plastic jars, they could submerge this into a water tank, and carry it outside, to detonate it at some other place! [Edited on 24-7-2006 by chemoleo]

You're correct in this assertion you know. When I was about 14, the cops came through our apartment on an unrelated matter (Structural inspection!) and, for some reason, went right to my bedroom. Here they found some 2 dozen bags of pyro essentials from the now defunct Square Lake Enterprises, all plainly labeled and weighed. They found 1 single flash powder salute in the form of a pipe. They freaked when they saw this and said all the parafin wax cubes I had laying about were C-4! HA! The cop trying to confiscate the "pipe bomb" didn't know what to do. He had a bag in hand and was dancing around like a girl. I grabbed the "bomb", tossed it in the bag he held and he about shit himself right there. He berated me for that one a bit. ;-)

The local cops called in the bomb squad and another county's cops. About 30 quacking geese in my bedroom snooping. The bomb squad disposed of my little item before proper documentation could be made. They had to give back all my equipment but seized Weingart's "Pyrotechnics" book as evidence.. They left all of my illegal commercial fireworks too!

I went to Juvenile Hall for a month and a half pending investigation on charges of manufacture and possession of explosives.... 3 lawyers later & with the local head honcho of the Bomb Squad as the DA's witness, they couldn't conclusively prove what kind of risk, if any, such a device posed to the general public while in my possession.

The judge liked me, I quoted several passages from Weingart by heart at her command and I caught the Bomb Squad asshole lying on the stand. The charges were dropped.

Their haste set me free. Good thing too! I was facing up to 20 years on each of 3 counts!

Assholes.

[Edited on 31-7-2006 by Misanthropy]

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Wow...that incident is pretty bad! How much TATP is involved in that kind of disaster (blowing up an apartment building)??? They must have had loads of it to do that kind of damage!

saltykid
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I just joined, hope you don't mind my jumping into the discussion...

It looks like you found some of the news articles, I have links to a bunch of them on my home computer if you are interested in others.

Authorities in Texas City act like idiots when explosives are involved probably because the 1947 disaster still has them on edge...

Irresponsible kids with explosives piss me off. I've done my share of screwwing around with synthesis, but I do the research first. There's a reason I haven't touched TATP (though curiousity is strong), and won't.
tito-o-mac
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People SHOULD BE MORE RESPONSIBLE! Stupid laws still make inaccurate, extremely dangerous experiments easily available to citizens. Take for example, the anarchist cookbook. Just plain shit! No chemical formulas, lousy graphics and no theory-based evidence.

I hope they bought insurance!
Sauron
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