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ave369
Eastern European Lady of Mad Science
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Allow me to introduce myself
Hi everyone!
My name is Aurora. I am an amateur chemist, moonshiner, survivalist and general mad scientist living in rural Russia, more precisely Yurievetz,
Ivanovo Oblast. Ten years ago ago I tried to get a specialist degree in "Chemical technologies of wood processing", but dropped out because of real
life issues (death of my father). However, chemistry is still one of my hobbies.
It's very hard to obtain chemical reagents and glassware in the small town where I live: Russia has its very own version of "War on Drugs" which is
way harsher than the American one. So I have to synthesize everything from stuff bought in gardening and hardware shops. But I'm a skillful
improviser.
Looking forward to sharing useful information with you all!
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papaya
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And you seem to be a female hobbyist, you omitted the most interesting part!
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ave369
Eastern European Lady of Mad Science
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I see no reason for emphasizing that.
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Amos
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Neither do most of us. Welcome to the forum.
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diggafromdover
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Welcome aboard. We do not have jackets, but we do have patches:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=62566
Please bring us your questions and problems.
[Edited on 9-7-2015 by diggafromdover]
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aga
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Welcome to Science Madness.
Please excuse the younger members - they get nervous when they meet real people.
It must be difficult to systhesise everything from base materials.
"Chemical technologies of wood processing"
Is that related to anything you are still doing ?
I ask because i have about 500ml of liquid left over from a wood pyrolysis experiment and do not know what to do with it.
[Edited on 9-7-2015 by aga]
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Molecular Manipulations
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Welcome to the forum ave, have you tried to make methanol from wood pyrolysis? Cheap on a small scale and easy if you have the
equipment.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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blogfast25
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Too right.
Welcome!
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ave369
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Regarding wood pyrolysis, I'm trying to apply this knowledge to my new lifestyle, survivalism. More precisely, I'm trying to invent an easy-to-make
gasoline substitute from wood. This biogasoline should be easily improvisable after nuclear war, with no fancy technologies and machines.
There is a wood pyrolysis product I'm going to experiment with, but it isn't methanol. It's turpentine. Methanol yields are too low for it to be of
practical use as fuel. Turpentine, on the other hand... I'm going to purchase several powered tools with gas-powered engines soon, and then prepare
and test my post-nuclear fuel, which I call "Little Pine Gasoline". It's made from various proportions of ethanol and turpentine.
I've already tested a form of "Little Pine" as substitute for kerosene in lamps and pressure stoves. It works.
There's another reason why I'm not going to experiment with methanol: I live in Russia. We drink everything that even remotely resembles ethanol here.
And trying to invent some consumer product that is based on methanol (which greatly resembles ethanol) is a recipe for disaster.
Quote: Originally posted by aga  |
I ask because i have about 500ml of liquid left over from a wood pyrolysis experiment and do not know what to do with it.
[Edited on 9-7-2015 by aga] |
What kind of wood it was? What does the liquid resemble: tar, turpentine, vinegar, alcohol?
[Edited on 10-7-2015 by ave369]
[Edited on 10-7-2015 by ave369]
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aga
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The wood was Olive.
The brown liquid is a mix of brown tars and watery liquid.
I think i intended to fractionally distill it at some point.
The reasons i did not do that are :-
a) the mess it leaves in glassware needs a lot of toluene to clean up.
b) i am not equipped to anaylse the fractional results to find out what they are.
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Molecular Manipulations
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Turpentine huh? Interesting.
I made methanol from pyrolysis a couple years ago, easy source for a solvent. I wasn't really thinking you were trying to produce a sellable product,
pyrolysis isn't really an economically viable method for MeOH production, as you seem to know.
Tell me more about turpentine though, might give it a go...
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Welcome to Science Madness.
I ask because i have about 500ml of liquid left over from a wood pyrolysis experiment and do not know what to do with it.
[Edited on 9-7-2015 by aga] |
Way to make it look like you came up with pyrolysis before me aga, I knew you'd find the edit button one day.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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ave369
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Turpentine, well, is a mix of hydrocarbons, mostly terpenes and other isoprene derivatives. It is produced from coniferous trees, such as pine and fir
trees, which are ubiquitous in the place where I live. More precisely, from their tarrier parts. It's a liquid with a boiling point close to that of
kerosene, but richer in carbon, with more double bonds. It also has a characteristic pungent smell.
Carburator engines do work on pure turpentine if you make low-octane adjustments. But it is not really suitable as a fuel substitute: too many double
bonds result in polymerisation and formation of tars that clog the engine. It is also too carbon-rich to use as lamp oil (too much soot). Pressure
stoves, though, run on it for a short time, until they, too, are clogged by products of polymerization.
And pure turpentine is also too expensive to burn. My idea is to produce a solution from turpentine and much cheaper ethanol (everyone in every remote
corner of the world knows how to make ethanol from any carb-containing matter). It will not be as sooty as pure turp in lamps, it will be more
high-octane and less likely to clog engines. And it will be not drinkable and not fatally toxic if someone stupid would try to drink it (merely an
irritant). It will be, of course, inferior to products of petroleum industry, but it could work as a substitute if access to oil will be cut.
What makes the idea seem interesting to me is that it is a versatile product. Various other methods to make internal combustion engines, pressure
stoves and lamps run on plant products involve different, incompatible fuels for each (for example, wood gas for vehicles, ethanol for stoves and
something else for lamps). And this project allows to use one liquid that fits all.
[Edited on 10-7-2015 by ave369]
[Edited on 10-7-2015 by ave369]
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aga
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Huh? No idea what you're talking about.
Pyrolysis was invented quite some time back ...
All i did was build a rig and try the idea http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24683&...
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deltaH
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Fascinating ave! Welcome!!!
Have you considered hydrogenating turpentine to get rid of the unsaturation? It might lead to a much cleaner fuel.
You can generate a lot of hydrogen from scrap aluminium.
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annaandherdad
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Hello, ave. We used to have a lawn mower with a 2-cycle gasoline engine. I found out that it would run just fine on turpentine, although it made a
lot of smoke.
Any other SF Bay chemists?
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ave369
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | Fascinating ave! Welcome!!!
Have you considered hydrogenating turpentine to get rid of the unsaturation? It might lead to a much cleaner fuel.
You can generate a lot of hydrogen from scrap aluminium. |
As far as I know, this requires a nickel catalyst. It's rather hard to make such a catalyst from matchsticks and acorns.
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by ave369 | | Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | Fascinating ave! Welcome!!!
Have you considered hydrogenating turpentine to get rid of the unsaturation? It might lead to a much cleaner fuel.
You can generate a lot of hydrogen from scrap aluminium. |
As far as I know, this requires a nickel catalyst.
It's rather hard to make such a catalyst from matchsticks and acorns. |
But, in a post apocalyptic world,
surely you'd be able to find nickel and/or palladium that you could macgyver into a catalyst? You could possibly use the palladium found in a
catalytic converter, as there would likely be plenty of abandoned cars. It ain't matchsticks and acrons, but in that scenario it could be considered
to be.
Edit: There's a PGM recycling facility down the road from where I live, so if I were in that scenario, assuming I got there before it got looted to
hell, I could get a lot of palladium, among other shiny things. 
[Edited on 7-14-2015 by zts16]
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ave369
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| Quote: Originally posted by zts16 | You could possibly use the palladium found in a catalytic converter, as there would likely be plenty of abandoned cars. It ain't matchsticks and
acrons, but in that scenario it could be considered to be.
[Edited on 7-14-2015 by zts16] |
Looks like a good idea. Though it might require me to trek into the regional capital and catch some rads. Here in the back country most cars don't
have them. Native Russian jalopies almost never have catalytic converters, and a new foreign car is quite rare in these parts. And those same jalopies
will be the main consumers of my "Little Pine Gas", since they are notably not finicky towards fuel.
[Edited on 14-7-2015 by ave369]
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deltaH
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Nickel catalysts are not practical for most amateur chemistry contexts IMHO, particularly as you would want to be processing significant volumes of
fuel in your backyard 'rig'. A supported palladium catalyst would be the recommended choice.
Nevertheless, the challenge of building and operating a hydrogen generator and hydrogenator would certainly be very large, particularly as it would
have to be a pressurised system at several bars 
Focussing on the hydrogen generator for now, one way is to react scrap aluminium with a solution of caustic soda.
The caustic soda in turn could be generated [possibly] by dripping water through a pipe filled with a mix of wood ash and lime. The resulting solution
from the bottom should be very basic, enough so to possibly react with scrap aluminium as is.
In an apocalyptic scenario, you would have to burn your own limestone as well, but for now it's available in most hardware stores at very low cost as
builder's lime 
Anyway, I like your idea of using an ethanol-turpentine blend. It is both elegant and simple. 
[Edited on 14-7-2015 by deltaH]
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ave369
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| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH |
The caustic soda in turn could be generated [possibly] by dripping water through a pipe filled with a mix of wood ash and lime. The resulting solution
from the bottom should be very basic, enough so to possibly react with scrap aluminium as is.
[Edited on 14-7-2015 by deltaH] |
I am perfectly aware of how to synthesize alkalis, thank you very much. Ca (OH)2 + K2CO3 -> 2KOH + CaCO3
(precipitates).
[Edited on 14-7-2015 by ave369]
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Bot0nist
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Slightly off topic, but did you ever play any Fallout 3? Your use of "rads" reminded me of it. It's been a while since I've played, and while it's
complete fiction, you may find the themes and gameplay appealing, considering your interests.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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battoussai114
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Welcome!
completely offtopic:
Every time I see "Allow me to introduce myself" my brain auto-completes it with "I'm a man of wealth and taste".
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aga
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Have you done any experiments with this idea ?
Specifically, in 2 and/or 4 stroke engines ?
Personally it would be interesting to run a 2-stroke generator on a home-made fuel (liquid, not syngas).
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Texium
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I'd be interested to try a few ratios of turpentine/ethanol (I apologize in advance though: I'll be using store bought turpentine as there aren't any
trees here that produce usable amounts of it). Maybe I'll run my weedwhacker on it.
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aga
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A Scientific study of a turpentine/ethanol mix would be very interesting, and i'm sure the assembled illuminati would be more than willing to help in
planning the experiment, if required.
Edit:
In an engine. I forgot the engine ...
[Edited on 14-7-2015 by aga]
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