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Armistice19
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At-Home Research Study (Pyrotechnic Adhesives Comparison in Salutes)
Hello all,
I would like to take the time now to inform any and all interested individuals, and/or those who would like to offer critique, that I will be
conducting somewhat of a “research study” concerning the effectiveness of various common adhesives used in the manufacture of pyrotechnics
(specifically salutes). The adhesives will be compared in homemade, and over-the-counter versions.
I plan on starting this particular project on Friday. Unless someone convinces me that research on this topic would be unnecessary, or is aware of
such a project already being conducted in a detailed fashion.
The purpose of my project will be to find the BEST OVERALL glue (considering cost, drying time, strength, density, hardness, flexibility, resistance
to water, expansion/contraction upon drying, and finally, the noise level of the finished salutes. All pertinent variables will be controlled as much
as possible during the course of the study; i.e. a predetermined consistent amount of designated flash powder formula will be used each time, use of
tubes of the same dimensions, same amounts of adhesive…etc.)
The glue will be used for completing two combined tasks:
-The manufacturing of paper tubes
-The plugging of said tubes
I aim to find a superfluous all purpose glue that can accomplish both tasks without any modification to the formula between each task.
Furthermore, two plugging techniques will also be observed. The first of which will be with tapered wood plugs in conjunction with the adhesive. The
second will only observe the plugging performance of the adhesive when used alone.
The study may or may not include the following materials (and/or any combination thereof):
-Caesin
-SGRS
-Dextrin
-Wheatpaste
-Waterglass
-PVA
-Wood glue
-Hide glue
-Alcohol
-Acetic Acid
-Sodium Bicarbonate
-Calcium Hydroxide
-Water
All results, test methods, lab notes, and other recorded data/observations will be posted in this thread during the corse of the study.
I encourage any of you to please inform me of any suggestions, critiques, or safety considerations that you feel I should be aware of at this time.
*NOTE* (Please, no high cost/high density adhesive suggestions. I am not going to use J-B Weld to make a salute.)
[Edited on 23-7-2015 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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HashtagNever
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SGRS is most definitely your best bet.
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Armistice19
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HashtagNever,
Thank you for your suggestion, however, only by word of mouth and beginner pyro-blogs have I found SGRS to be "the best" pyro-adhesive. I imagine SGRS
is merely an inexpensive Japanese raw material that is acceptable in performance. Can you prove to me; i.e. site reliable sources that concur SGRS is
in fact superior to all other adhesives used for the above purposes? I would be more than happy to read!
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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kecskesajt
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In Hungary,we use waterglass for almost anything(except stars).
It doesnt dry that easily but very strong tube will be the product.We make a bounch of paper tubes at once(100-150 pieces)
It expand a little but usable.
Another thing we like is CMC(carboxymethylcellulose).
It doesnt expand very muck but if you make a shell from it and you are not carefull enough it can kill you because its so strong.
Relatevely low cost,maybe ~7 dollars for 1 kg.
The best for tube: Waterglass
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For plug,the best thing is clay plug.Dry pressed Na or Ca bentonite.Very strong and in explosion you have lesser chance getting hit by it than using
wood or gypsum plugs.
But the loudest is with modell gypsum
So the best for salute:Waterglass paper with gypum plug.
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Armistice19
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Yes I believe waterglass to be a huge contender in this study, however my official hypothesis based on the previously posted considerations, is that
our champion glue will consist of a mixture of adhesives. Thus combining the individual properties of interest.
I’m glad you mentioned bentonite/gypsum plugs. I was considering them, but previously believed them to be inferior to wood as far as reaching
maximum pressure? Having said that, getting hit by dense enough flying debris is definitely a safety concern.
...Brain snack...
Gypsum:
2.32 g/cc
Wood (Pine):
0.35-0.67 g/cc
Modulus of rupture anyone??
Heart Pine vs. Yellow Pine:
13,340-17,259 PSI
Gypsum 90% vs. Gypsum Plaster:
725-1,067 PSI
Anyone out there know how to calculate the maximum PSI released from a confined given amount of Flash Powder?
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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Pyro-Alan
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You need to read these.
Fireworks
The art Science and Techniques, pub. 1988
Takeo Shimizu, PhD, Engr.
Pyrotechnica Pubs.
Chemistry of Pyrotechnics
Basic Principles and Theory 2nd ed., 2011
John Conkling, Christopher Mocella
CRC Press
The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives
Tenney L. Davis, Ph.D.
Two vols. In one book
Angriff Press 1943
The use of adhesives, confinement, formulae for explosion analysis.
Must haves for pyros.
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Armistice19
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Pyro-Alan,
Thanks for the reading list!
I'm about 3/4 of the way through The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives right now, and once finished, I will be reading the Takeo Shimizu book.
Shimizu's work has been recommended far too many times to ignore at this point. I have even heard whispers from other threads/forums that he actually
discusses the very subject of pyrotechnic adhesives in depth!
Update:
This past Friday I tested some homemade Casein on a couple of old wooden planks from a Pickett fence (unpainted). After about 12 hours of drying, I
was still able to separate the planks with my bare hands. However, this was not the easiest thing in the world to pull apart either. The glue seemed
sticky and jelly like rather than a hard crust.
Procedure:
First I warmed up 1 1/2 cups of skim milk to a steam. I then eye-balled about two teaspoons of white distilled vinegar which was immediately stirred
in thus separating the whey from the curd. I then added about a spoonful of baking soda to the curd, which I further heated while whisking in tap
water. End product was yellowish-white with a "goopy" consistency.
I want to clarify that this attempt was nothing but a rough practice run in order to "get a feel" for the process. Later on tonight I will be making
my second attempt. This one will be essentially the same as before, however I will use a graduated cylinder, an analytical scale, and a thermometer.
Furthermore, this time all data/observations will be posted (most likely at some point on Tuesday).
[Edited on 26-7-2015 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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aga
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I'm not a Pyro guy at all, yet i'm intrigued as to How you are going to measure the 'Best' adhesive.
Have you developed a protocol to Scientifically measure their relative performances ?
If not, then i fear that your efforts will be wasted, as the Scientists here will not accept just your word for it : you would have to produce
Scientific Data to convince them.
Before pointlessly blowing a lot of stuff up, it would be a good idea to post your testing protocol for people to have a look at, and maybe for you to
adapt into a truly Scientific procedure.
Just a thought.
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Armistice19
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Before I say anything, I will begin with some basic clarification in case there was any miscommunication. The adhesive which creates the loudest
salute, for the least amount of money, is (for my purposes) the champion glue.
Aga,
Thanks for your thought! this is exactly why I post my projects on this forum. I believe Benjamin Franklin was correct when he said "Critics are our
friends, they show us our faults.”
After re-reading my first original post on this thread, I can see why you would wonder about my testing protocol. The introduction was very
unspecific, and the main reason for this is because the specifics of the protocol are still being developed at this time. The introduction was simply
meant to give a general idea of what kind of properties of interest I will be observing in the final adhesive (most importantly the decibel level of
finished salutes).
Also please keep in mind this is not a professional research study by any means. I don't expect to get published, nor do I expect to be taken
seriously by professors/world renown scientists. This is me having fun, and I merely wanted to contribute to sciencemadness after the many years that
you all have assisted me in my educational journey.
Anyway, let's get to the good part. Perhaps now I should post a rough general procedure of how I imagine things might go??
1. COST: I plan on saving receipts.
2. DRYING TIME: I plan to be using a hardness durometer every hour on a completely different location on the finished paper tube. Each time hardness
is tested, the exact time will be recorded. Once I get 5 readings of the same hardness, I will declare set time. After 12 hours I will test the
hardness three last times to get a final average, and compare it to the previous set time.
3. DENSITY: I plan on getting the mass from my scale, and the volume from my graduated cylinder....(you get the idea).
4. EXPANSION/CONTRACTION UPON DRYING: I plan on using digital calipers to measure all dimensions before and after drying.
5. NOISE LEVEL OF FINISHED SALUTE: I plan on using a decibel meter.
Furthermore, the salutes will be standard “Silver Salutes”
1-1/2" Long
1/2" Inner Diameter
10/16" Outer Diameter
1.5 grams of flash powder (standard 70/30 using indian blackhead)
[Edited on 27-7-2015 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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Armistice19
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A sad day
Apologies all around everybody. Obviously this project did not go quite as planned. It is with a heavy heart that I announce my favorite private
property has been bought up by local government. I no longer have a proper place to conduct these tests. Between that and heavy work loads at the lab,
I will be postponing this project until further notice. 
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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Armistice19
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So I'm thinking about revamping this project slowly, but before I do, I have an extremely important safety question. I understand that having a high
humidity environment greatly decreases the chances of a static discharge while mixing FP and during the construction of salutes. But I also know that
high humidity can cause the Al powder to begin to evolve hydrogen and form aluminum oxide while releasing small amounts of heat along the way. So
which is it? High humidity, or low humidity? Isn't this a catch 22?
My knowledge tells me that during mixing or fabrication of salutes there should be a high humidity, and that pre-mixed FP or finished salutes should
be stored in a desiccator sprayed with static guard (which I have already done).
Am I correct here?
I've also heard of people cleaning up FP spills with a sponge and soapy water, which I have also done before, but I've been thinking about that lately
and how it could be hazardous for the same reasons stated above. Just concerned right now, as anyone who does this kind of thing should be!
[Edited on 8-5-2016 by Armistice19]
[Edited on 8-5-2016 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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PHILOU Zrealone
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A little moisture into FP is bad news but a large amount like a soaking wet sponge for a tiny spill is absolutely harmless because there is a lot of
water to take up the heat and too little FP to inflame and produce any damage...stil don't trow the sponge afterwards into your FP drum   
[Edited on 6-8-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Armistice19
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From what I've been reading that makes a lot of sense. Thank you kindly.
Here's an experimental salute I made not too long ago. Currently it is in the desiccator for safety, and because the glue was taking forever to dry!
(I layed it on extremely thick)
Made from rolled Kraft paper and wheat paste with wooden endplugs. Wheat paste had a little extra sugar, titebond III ultimate wood glue, and 91%
first aid grade ispropyl alcohol. There is absolutely NO airspace in the finished product, due to tamping and hammering the final plug in tightly. (I
know I'm crazy)
Final product was brushed with 3 coats of titebond III ultimate wood glue, and two final large gobs more to cover the end plugs.
Video coming soon.
[Edited on 8-6-2016 by Armistice19]
[Edited on 8-6-2016 by Armistice19]
[Edited on 8-6-2016 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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Bert
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Shoot. Just fiberglass them, if you want the ultimate hard shell.
And then shoot the same weight of flash in 3 turns of 80 lb. Kraft paper, and be amazed at the lack of huge performance increase vs. huge additional
effort to make ridiculously elaborate casings.
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Armistice19
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Good point,
I really went overkill on that one, but it was more just to see what would happen if I did. We'll see how she performs, I'm expecting it not to be
great at this point.
Sounds like the general consensus is that thicker and harder doesn't always mean better. I suppose I've chosen to learn this lesson the hard way.
Hopefully I still get a nice crater though
[Edited on 8-6-2016 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Wooden plugs...maybe replace with slaked lime/chalk so when bursting it becomes a dust and not a hard projectile...
In fact the tamping and hammering to put as much as possible into the banger is useless...
Commercial hard cardboard "Pirat bangers" with a match head instead of a fuse only contains 1/3 of free flowing flash powder...the 2/3 rest is
air...thus it is quite a material economy...instead of 1 banger, you can make 3!
I have made rolled newspaper bangers cylinders with wooden glue...you can make as big, as long and as thick as you want...and it is hard like stone.
[Edited on 6-8-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
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Armistice19
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I haven't tried slaked lime yet, I was thinking about bentonite as another (safer) plugging option as well.
Yes I realize the tamping and hammering can lead to a "blowout" situation. I kind of wanted to see if it would still happen with the thicker harder
tube.
I'm intrigued with potential pressure build up with this particular practice device.
I have a 7.5 g polumna from 4th of July in the desiccator as well. I was very disappointed with the polumnas I made this year as they were very
"poofy" and far less "bangy" than years past.
[Edited on 8-6-2016 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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PHILOU Zrealone
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You can spice up lower pyrotechnic compositions with a pinch of dust from silver acetylide nitrato complex (detonating)...of course don't use this for
the fuse only for the core charge.
I have done this in démos at univeristy and Bengale fire turned into severe bangers.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Armistice19
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Silver Acetylide fuse! LOL jeeze oh man!
But in all seriousness thanks for the warning. It is far better to make sure everyone's safe, rather than assume that I didn't already know not to do
that. Ever.
I figure someday I'll do a synth of the stuff, but it's a little out of my league for now. Mostly due to it's instability, and the fact that the hand
full of times I made NC were my first real synths. Most of the stuff I create consists of powder binaries (the occasional thermite) smoke
compositions, gas/oxygen filled balloons and such. Better to do plenty of reading on it before I attempt it, but sounds pretty neat none the less!
P.S. *Just remembered I have two jugs of calcium hydroxide on the shelf! Time to get crackin' (no pun intended).
[Edited on 8-6-2016 by Armistice19]
[Edited on 8-6-2016 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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PHILOU Zrealone
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Quote: Originally posted by Armistice19  | Silver Acetylide fuse! LOL jeeze oh man!
But in all seriousness thanks for the warning. It is far better to make sure everyone's safe, rather than assume that I didn't already know not to do
that. Ever.
I figure someday I'll do a synth of the stuff, but it's a little out of my league for now. Mostly due to it's instability, and the fact that the hand
full of times I made NC were my first real synths. Most of the stuff I create consists of powder binaries (the occasional thermite) smoke
compositions, gas/oxygen filled balloons and such. Better to do plenty of reading on it before I attempt it, but sounds pretty neat none the less!
P.S. *Just remembered I have two jugs of calcium hydroxide on the shelf! Time to get crackin' (no pun intended).
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Good luck!
Don't forget to wear gloves and googles...Ca(OH)2 is quite basic and dangerous/irritating to skin and eyes when moist...about equivalent to medium
concentration NaOH solution...
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Armistice19
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| Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone |
Good luck!
Don't forget to wear gloves and googles...Ca(OH)2 is quite basic and dangerous/irritating to skin and eyes when moist...about equivalent to medium
concentration NaOH solution... |
Thanks!
I figure I'll read the MSDS on the particular stuff I have.
[Edited on 8-6-2016 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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Bert
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Hitt's flashcrackas, just sayin'-
No end plugs at all, just a small dab of white glue on dry rolled paper, string, flash powder and a fuse. Loud as hell if made with decent dark
Aluminum/perchlorate/Sulfur or Antimony sulfide flash.
In the long ago, I saw 1 oz. of such flash loaded in a heavy spiral wound cardboard tube with very strong end plugs shot in a subjective comparison
test with the same charge in an oversized version of the flashcracka. All who witnessed these tests prefered the sound quality of the flashcracka, and
there was no possibility of case materials becoming a dangerous projectile.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Armistice19
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Eeek! Sulfur containing flash powders?
I've honestly only ever read about them, but they also sound out of my league again for now.
I'll try to make one of the earlier mil-spec m-80s if I get enough votes from you guys (but not until you guys give me time to research it properly.)
Heck, I'll even order the antimony sulfide for it too, but not yet. Best give it some time for me to get used to these kinds of projects before I get
ahead of myself!
Just finished doing a bit of reading on Thomas Gabriel Hitt and just...wow. What an amazing man!
[Edited on 8-7-2016 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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Bert
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Old fashioned saietines were made from 3 turns of dry rolled heavy kraft paper, rammed sawdust for end plugs and 2 turns of pasted string to hold it
all together. They survived being ejected from a bursting aerial shell and were freaking LOUD with an ounce or so of decent flash, minimal thickness
of a tough containment works just fine...
The primary reason for a heavy containment is using too slow a flash for the application, or the need for a lot of durability in handling and
shipping. Otherwise, let the flash do the work. Want more noise? Use more flash.
And the dessicator is of questionable utility with perchlorate/Aluminum flash. You are also lowering the tensile strength of the paper by getting it
crunchy dry, some have caused rocket cases to fail by treating them like that. I do not keep our several tons of salutes in a dessicator...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Armistice19
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Fair enough.
Sounds like what I'm hearing from you guys is that it would be a more relevant/appropriate contribution to the forum if I were to shift my focus away
from adhesives and containment methods, and instead begin to experiment with different (more dangerous ) flash formulas, especially since what I'm going for here is decibel level (though brisance is of interest as well). I
suppose I'm okay with changing up the original plan of attack with this study, however my main concern was (and still is) safety, and 70/30 KClO4/Al
was the safest formula I could find.
Having said all this, I suppose I could begin to maintain a respectful fear for my hobby and still up the ante with new, more powerful/sensitive flash
based mixtures at the same time. Though I will need to do a lot of research before these attempts, which will take a considerable amount of time.
So far I hear from you guys a few things.
1. Addition of Sulfur, or Antimony Sulfide (which scares me)
2. Sprucing up the bang with a primary initiator (which scares me even more)
3. Allow for more airspace in the containment
Any other suggestions? All suggestions are welcome, but please notify me of safety concerns.
I have an old ball mill and some 1/4" chrome plated steel media collecting dust somewhere in storage too. I was thinking of further milling the
already finely powdered components separately in order to achieve sub-micron particle sizes, though I would have no way of testing the actual particle
size
I figure after that I could start by diapering together sub-gram quantities. This should give me some time to get a feel for the mixtures, maybe do a
couple hammer tests as well, provided I find a decent place to do them.
Bert,
Is it common to fiberglass coat salutes? From what I've read, glass is pretty high on the positive end of the triboelectric series, and polyester
resin very low on the negative. Wouldn't that make a high potential for static discharge? I suppose this wouldn't matter if grounded-out during
handling though, but still.
Speaking of grounding out, my pipes under my sink are plastic. Anywhere else I could connect my wristband?
[Edited on 8-10-2016 by Armistice19]
[Edited on 8-10-2016 by Armistice19]
“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire
world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” -Albert Einstein
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