Conor579
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On mass production
If I have a reaction that is: A--->B via a reduction/hydrogenation method, how could I work it up from the lab to a full scale mass production?
Just asking.
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Nicodem
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Thread Moved
7-8-2015 at 02:22 |
BromicAcid
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Two options, lots of small reactions with lots of people running them simultaneously (assembly line style) or much larger 'pots and pans'. I.e., 50,
100, 200 gallon hydrogenators and appropriately sized equipment for the workup. Essentially, if you are going to scale it you need something bigger
or something more. That's about all I can say from what you have provided.
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MrHomeScientist
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Vague questions are unlikely to receive useful answers. Provide more details on your specific reaction and planned quantities. A scale up could be as
simple as "Get a bigger pot" or as tricky as "Prone to thermal runaway and explosion above X liters".
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aga
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A--->B is really hard to scale up.
Only works where xA = yB where x < y < 5 and best when y=2.71 to 2.73 and the pot is made of weasel bones.
Now if you could find a route to B where you need no A, then just finding more B is a perfect way to scale up, and removes this limitation.
Seriously, how do you expect to get any kind of useful answer when you've given next to no details ?
Edit:
OMG.
You have done it.
Your post contains less of anything than any post before, and i bet you're not even drunk.
[Edited on 7-8-2015 by aga]
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diggafromdover
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A third option, much loved in industry, is the continuous flow reaction where reactants enter but only products emerge.
Enjoying second childhood with REAL chemistry set.
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aga
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Sounds like Mad Max: Thunderdome.
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Conor579
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Alright, well, I specifically want to scale it up with regards to it not exploding above a certain volume, presumably 100 gallons lets say.
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j_sum1
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To scale something up, use more.
Next question.
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Ozone
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"Only works where xA = yB where x < y < 5 and best when y=2.71 to 2.73 and the pot is made of weasel bones"
ROTFL! Fricking great answer!
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
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j_sum1
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One thing my lab is lacking is a weasel bone crucible.
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Magpie
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Wiki says hydrogenation is an exothermic reaction. Assuming you have a 100 gallon batch:
1. Look-up the heat of hydrogenation per mole of your substrate (eg, vegetable oil).
2. Look-up the heat capacity of your substrate and your product.
3. Calculate the temperature rise of your substrate and product assuming no heat transfer.
This should be an upper bound for the temperature and give an indication on whether your vessel needs to be cooled or not. Cooling options would
include an internal coil and/or a cooling jacket. I'm assuming you will have adequate mixing during the reaction and be introducing the hydrogen as
fast as it is consumed.
[Edited on 7-8-2015 by Magpie]
[Edited on 7-8-2015 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Conor579
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Alright. Looks like I wasn't specific enough. I SPECIFICALLY want to see what I could do to mass produce, from hydrogenating an alcohol (say isopropyl
alcohol) to an alkane (propane) through a reaction that would go as A (alcohol) ----> B (alkane) and see what viable option there was IF I had a
container that was somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 L and see where to go from there on scaling it up.
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battoussai114
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People take a 5 year degree of Chem. E. to know on how to design a mass production plant, scaling something up is not as trivial as it seems, while it
seems it would be simple: make the reactor x times bigger if you want x times more product. But things get hectic really fast.
For starters once you have a big reaction chamber you'll have problems on how to add/remove heat without impairing your results as you will have a
huge temperature gradient if your system is big, you will also have to consider how to mix your reactants as you probably can't assume the
distribution of your reagents as uniform anymore, not without continuous stirring, and if you have continuous stirring you have to deal with possible
turbulence in the fluid, which means you'll need to consider the rheology of your reaction mixture and regulate speed and add baffles to the reactor
accordingly. And so on and so forth.
I'd say you should look on some resources on reactor design or look around for books or classes on Chemical Reaction Engineering, here at the
university they tend to use the book by Levenspiel, and you might find online classes on MIT OpenCourseware or another similar platform.
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Conor579
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Thanks. I'll look through it. I like your response btw Battoussai114 
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Conor579
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Hey Battoussai114, in a CSTR, can the volume be measured in liters? Along with the rate of consumption being in moles per liter second?
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