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Author: Subject: Plasticiser question.
kecskesajt
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[*] posted on 7-8-2015 at 11:20
Plasticiser question.


Sorry for the n00b question but.
Today I bought some rat glue.
MSDS says:contains polybutylenes and polyisobutylenes.
It is a very thick paste,it doesnt flow from a paper.
How much should add?2% or 2%+ 2% oil?
I want to plasticise ETN an ammonpulver.
I have ethylene glycol so I can nitrate.Can be used instead of oil,No?
Thanks for the anwers.
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Jnas480
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[*] posted on 8-8-2015 at 19:00


It appears has other ingredients in it.

Bird Gel has 98% polybutene
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kecskesajt
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[*] posted on 8-8-2015 at 20:31


I mixed 5% with 95% flour.It doesnt seem to hold together.
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greenlight
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[*] posted on 8-8-2015 at 21:46


Your going to need at least 10-12% bare minimum using just PB on its own and it has to be rolled into the powder to be plasticized for even distribution.
PB and PIB are only binders in plastic explosive and mixtures like C4 also contain a softener/plasticizer like Dioctyl sebacate.
I use motor oil to help it hold and soften it acting as a plasticizer so it is more malleable.
I have only plasticized PETN so far with PB but I use 14-15% PB and 1% motor oil which does wonders to the end product.

[Edited on 9-8-2015 by greenlight]
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kecskesajt
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[*] posted on 9-8-2015 at 11:44


PETN + 15% plasticiser? Would not make the OB too negative?
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Jnas480
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[*] posted on 9-8-2015 at 12:20


The polybutene is a binder, you need plastiszer such as Di Sebcate, no detergent motor oil also 1% up to 2% (the Di Sebcate is expensive).

Not sure what u doing with flour, Flour is soulable in water,
(Are you testing it before, you use ETN, not to waste it)

Pretty much what greenlight said
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greenlight
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[*] posted on 9-8-2015 at 21:45


I think it is fine with the 15% binder, even though it is not all binder, the commercial Semtex has 20% inerts. I think it would lower VOD mostly.

[Edited on 10-8-2015 by greenlight]
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kecskesajt
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[*] posted on 9-8-2015 at 22:21


Dioctyl sebacate?I saw it only at Sigma-Aldrich, Czechoslovakia is my neighbour,go to the semtex factory and:Hi,do you have some dioctyl sbacate?Why do you need?And you are not permitted to get here!
For science experiments.
And yes,I used flour because I dont wanted to waste.
I asked,can EGDN used insted motor oil?
And I is good to dissolve the PIB into benzine(more purified gasoline) and the add to ETN?
Anyway,thank everybody for the anwsers!
Have a nice day.
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greenlight
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[*] posted on 10-8-2015 at 00:08


I'm pretty sure Dioctyl sebacate is used in C4 with Polysobutylene and Semtex has a different mix of binder/plasticizers.
I read somewhere that EGDN used to be used as a detection taggant not a plasticizer in Semtex but has since been replaced.
I think you should just stick with standard motor oil.
Yes I think you can do it that way but maybe choose something like white spirits or ethanol which I have seen people use. If I am correct you dissolve PIB and plasticizer in the solvent, add explosive, mix together and evaporate solvent.
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kecskesajt
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[*] posted on 10-8-2015 at 00:49


Ethanol,acetone,Isopropanol,nitro-solvent(toluene,acetone,butylacetate),Don't dissolve the glue.
Only petroleum,naptha and benzine dissolve the glue.
Yes,you are right.Dissolve PIB,add oil,explosive,stir and evaporate.
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greenlight
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[*] posted on 10-8-2015 at 02:49


Ah, yes maybe white spirits could work as well if you have it in your country as it isn't carcinogenic and not such a health hazard otherwise I suppose its benzene.
I wonder if you could somehow find out what exactly the glue is and extract it before using the PIB in your plastic.
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kecskesajt
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[*] posted on 10-8-2015 at 04:01


Only says polybutenes and polyisobutenes.Does not flamable,non-toxic.
Petroleum=white spirit.Evaporates slowly.
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[*] posted on 10-8-2015 at 15:36


Petroleum based solvents will dissolve pib easily so this is the way to go- there is a huge amount of information on plasticising on this site. I know the search engine is not the greatest but if you spend a bit of time trawling this site there are tidbits in a lot of the threads. Myself have gotten basic procedures for plasticising from here and with a bit of experimenting have gotten a product as good as or better than the real item with excellent handling properties and a pretty good density with 12% plasticisers/binders. It's all here, just spread out in different parts of SM.



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kecskesajt
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[*] posted on 10-8-2015 at 21:09


Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse  
Petroleum based solvents will dissolve pib easily so this is the way to go- there is a huge amount of information on plasticising on this site. I know the search engine is not the greatest but if you spend a bit of time trawling this site there are tidbits in a lot of the threads. Myself have gotten basic procedures for plasticising from here and with a bit of experimenting have gotten a product as good as or better than the real item with excellent handling properties and a pretty good density with 12% plasticisers/binders. It's all here, just spread out in different parts of SM.

Always using search engine.But I dont want to get missinformated.At one post it says 2% the other says 7%.This is why I made another topic.
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[*] posted on 11-8-2015 at 15:14


I guess it's really up to you since there's no real set instructions on exactly how much of whatever to use. It's really whatever works and wether or not you Are happy with the results. There's many ways to approach the plasticisation and you can't really say one way is the correct way.after trial and error you'll find the best way that suits you.



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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 26-1-2016 at 13:53


I got some rat glue traps and have had moderate success.

for 10 grams etn I used 2 grams of the glue with .6g of oil, and kneaded it for about an hour with folding it into its self with a bit of xylen as solvent.

I'm showing pics of the 4gram sample that I used for determining the amounts.

and then the pictures of the 10 gram test.

The issues I find is they are too tacky, and then when loaded with enough material to make less so it is too dry and cracks too much

but det chararistics are quit good when fully driven, the det had a .3g bas charge of heavy compressed etn

Silly power putty 1.jpg - 116kBcharge + Tamping.jpg - 237kBPost det 1.jpg - 265kBPost det 2.jpg - 323kB
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[*] posted on 28-1-2016 at 07:41


you could use gasoline or some more fancy solvents for dissolving the PIB to then leave a more or less hard mix, you may even keep a bit of the gasoline in it, or mix it up with motor oil and let the gasoline evaporate out
just keep in mind gasoline contains benzene




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
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[*] posted on 28-1-2016 at 08:25


The issue isn't the solvent, the issue is in the glue compound, though I will be switching to gas as it is faster in evaporation then the Xylene, or I'll still use a bit of Xylene as it yields a longer working time.

For all those making plastics I can share one secret that is easily don: LOTs of kneading! If your wrists don't hurt you haven't mixed it enough!

I think I may have some PIB containing tape here will test out and need to buy gear to make methanol ricinate, and want to test out making PGDN (Propylene glycol dinitrate) as an energetic plasticizer

The stuff I produced is readily mold-able, but super tacky, so perhaps a different or more oil need be used. Main thing is to say that the glue traps can be used with limited success.
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[*] posted on 28-1-2016 at 18:19


You roll it like dough. A smooth rolling pin and glass surface are your best bet. I've rolled slot of plastic and using methyl ricinoleate is the go. It gets nice and soft like plasticine without cracking. Rolling really is not the fun part. It's not a secret it is the procedure and wou will not get a high density and malleable plastic without it. Also less oil will help with the stickiness. Also try the bird repellent polybutene. You get a very nice result.



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[*] posted on 29-1-2016 at 17:06


http://www.ebay.fr/itm/4-The-Birds-Transparent-Bird-Gel-Repe...


This is good as source of polybutene ?
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[*] posted on 29-1-2016 at 19:40


Quote: Originally posted by magicchemist  
http://www.ebay.fr/itm/4-The-Birds-Transparent-Bird-Gel-Repe...


This is good as source of polybutene ?



Perfect, its the same stuff i use . it makes quite a nice plastic but due to is viscosity it is a pain to work with.




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[*] posted on 30-1-2016 at 02:18



Someone has a good protocol to make methyl ricinoleate ?
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[*] posted on 30-1-2016 at 03:08


search the thread: PETN vs RDX toward the end of the thread. and there's this:

[Edited on 30-1-2016 by NeonPulse]

Attachment: methylricinoleate.pdf (42kB)
This file has been downloaded 576 times

Attachment: Rape-Seed-Oil-Conversion_2001.pdf (663kB)
This file has been downloaded 448 times





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[*] posted on 30-1-2016 at 05:21


ok thank you and it's really important to wash the methyl ester with sulfuric acid ?
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[*] posted on 4-2-2016 at 07:29


I made a nitrogell bound etn charge, it was moderatly moldable. When it still had the acetone solvent in it, it was very very moldable and pliable.

5% - Gun cotton
16.7% - NitroGlycerin
82.5% - ETN

Out side would form a dry hard skin, so needs to be hand rolled again on use to homoginize it.

.3gram etn cap fired it at high ordered. Punched a nice clean fist sized hole through the steel test plate.

So this mix is good for packing a shell such as a EFP or Shaped charge.

[Edited on 4-2-2016 by XeonTheMGPony]
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