Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2  
Author: Subject: Plasticizer problem
underground
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 583
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 17-12-2015 at 06:27


Markx i have already polybutene (not PIB) from bird repellant (read my above posts) but did not worked well
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fulmen
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1576
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bored

[*] posted on 17-12-2015 at 08:47


I haven't tried the bird repellant, but PIB from tape works fine in combination with oil even at 90% solids.



We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1069
Registered: 2-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 17-12-2015 at 14:57


Underground you need this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toolcraft-Poly-Isobutylene-PIB-Aut...
Is it tested, working, nothing problem. No cutting. Normal 2 meter to gasoline tape as snake. No filtration. Tape can be ( is it better), as one snake in gasoline. For all times. As dead worm. In long (30 days+) concentration increasing. PIB is pretty expensive, therefore is better let the snake in a glass. And concentration determine again. After a long time, it is possible to pull out the whole snake from the glass. Stretch between the fingers. Filtration is almost impossible. Dishes and destroyed everything around. All times tested. And 1:1 with oil, of course.
Liptakov.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.

thumbup.gif posted on 26-12-2015 at 05:10


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Can just ETN and vaseline make a good plastic explosive ?


I think/hope so...

I think im going to try this (95%ETN, 5 vaseline)...its not some kind of plasic explosive, but should work pretty good to get a high density (but, with alots of tests before, casue shit is pretty sensitive) without that much work

However...anyone already did ETN/Vaseline?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
underground
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 583
Registered: 10-10-2013
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-12-2015 at 06:56


Vladimir if you are going to try this, please tell us the results

[Edited on 26-12-2015 by underground]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
pdb
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 67
Registered: 8-4-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-6-2016 at 08:24
Sebacate impact : none ?!


After purchasing bis(2-ethylhexyl) sebacate, I started testing around 20 combinations, with the follwing protocol :
- PETN 85% in all recipes (when/if I find a satisfactory formula, I will increase PETN percentage point by point until it becomes non usable)
- 15% built by mixing 3 ingredients : Blu-Tack binder 8-15% + sebacate 0-5% + oil SAE 10W 0-5%

My findings so far :
- oil softens the plastic but makes it sticky to fingers (same as with vaseline). Difficult to get ride of when on your skin
- Blu-Tack binder yields a moldable product, while 3M self-amalgaming tape binder gives something hard and crumbly, which does not stick to itself
- I didn't see any difference with & without sebacate, which puzzles me.

I know lots have been discussed on this forum about platicizing PETN or RDX, but nothing definitive. I would be interested to hear from someone having experienced with sebacate.

Thanks.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1069
Registered: 2-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 3-6-2016 at 01:55
plasticizer


You watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Brs1bqr_7M
Only 8% - 10% plastificator is possible used for all materials. ...LL...:cool:
Conditions are using tape and oil 5W40. Usually 1:1.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1069
Registered: 2-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 24-7-2016 at 12:31
plasticizer


For this energetic material was used PETN a basically fraction 0,1 x 0,1 mm. Milled through sieve (0,1 ) as dry material. EM content (estimate) a very fine parts, 0,01 mm cca 10% from all. Content PIB from self-amalgamating tape 6%, synthetic motor oil 5W40 same, 6%. Plasticizer together 12%. Used watercolor - acrylate red and orange, mixed after plastification. Maybe 0,7 to 1,5 % in dry form. ...LL...:cool:

SMX.jpg - 180kB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1069
Registered: 2-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 5-1-2017 at 00:32
plasticizer


New link on basic preparation plastic material. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euVUa7C5rAM
........LL........:cool:




Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor CHP and Lithex
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 686
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 5-1-2017 at 03:30


That looks great LL.!
I will have to try it as a replacement for using polybutene bird repellent as the binder as it takes hours of rolling and doesn't get to that plasticity.
Good work.




The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1069
Registered: 2-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 7-1-2017 at 13:44


Well, this tape is I mean best. Has ideal molecule weight, respectively long of molecular chains is ideal for purpose as plastic binder. Bird repellent has short chains, (low molecular weight) therefore is difficult or impossible preparation good binder. Thanks for watching,.......LL........:cool:



Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor CHP and Lithex
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 686
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 7-1-2017 at 20:39


Yes, the end product looks very good.
I cannot get the bird repellent PE to pull apart and stretch like that without breaking.

One question I have is what is the final density of your plasticized explosive?
Is it as high as you can get with bird repellent like 1.4-1.45.





The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1069
Registered: 2-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 03:10
plasticizer


Well. In video is not explosive, but only fine the flour. But with some material (1,77) can be in plastic consistence about 1,4. At handle pressing. With ratio 8% PIB + 4% oil, can be density 1,5g /cm3. However material will has low plasticity. But for filling shaped charge is better just using hard plastic. There can increase density on 1,6g /cm3. This method was measured. And confirmed 1,58g /cm3.......LL.........:cool:



Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor CHP and Lithex
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 686
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 04:20


Thats sounds good as the plastic I am using at the moment is @ density 1.45 but using about 14% inert material.
I just ordered some of the same tape and I will give it a go with the next batch as you have convinced me.
Thanks LL....

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by greenlight]




The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2880
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 08:41


Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov  
Well. In video is not explosive, but only fine the flour. But with some material (1,77) can be in plastic consistence about 1,4. At handle pressing. With ratio 8% PIB + 4% oil, can be density 1,5g /cm3. However material will has low plasticity. But for filling shaped charge is better just using hard plastic. There can increase density on 1,6g /cm3. This method was measured. And confirmed 1,58g /cm3.......LL.........:cool:

If I do the calculation right...
Density of PIB and oïl is 0,90 g/cm³; content 12%
Density of the explosive powder is 1,77 g/cm³; content 88%
so
Density of mix 12/88 = (0,90*12%)+(1,77*88%) = 1,6656 g/cm³
You write 1,4 --> Where does the 16% gap come from (1,4/1,6656 =0,8405)? Air?




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Dornier 335A
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 229
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 13:39


Almost!
The density of the mixture is not the arithmetic mean, it's the harmonic mean. Which gives
1/(0.12/0.9+0.88/1.77) = 1.59 g/cm3.

It's still 12% air by volume though - it might be suboptimal grain geometry but I have a feeling it enters while you knead the plastic (just like when candy canes are made).

View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1069
Registered: 2-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 9-1-2017 at 01:49


I know, seems it that is it all unusual, according arithmetic mean should by 1.66 g /cm3. However only in machine pressing in thick metal cavity. At normal use is all always worse. Therefore PETN 88/12 with density (in cavity shaped charge) 1,58 is very good result. And even it is almost precise, what describe Dornier. .....LL.......:cool:



Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor CHP and Lithex
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2880
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 9-1-2017 at 10:25


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
Almost!
The density of the mixture is not the arithmetic mean, it's the harmonic mean. Which gives
1/(0.12/0.9+0.88/1.77) = 1.59 g/cm3.

It's still 12% air by volume though - it might be suboptimal grain geometry but I have a feeling it enters while you knead the plastic (just like when candy canes are made).


Wow! I didn't knew this and was wrong for so much time.

Thank you Dornier 335A, I was really missing that information...especially if working onto detonic parameters what are strongly density dependant...

The bigger the density difference between A and B into a binary mix, the bigger the effect (lower bending of the harmonic mean vs the arithmetic one).


Density binary mix.jpg - 80kB




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
DubaiAmateurRocketry
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 843
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: LA, CA, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: In research

[*] posted on 9-1-2017 at 10:38


Hmm, isnt the % of air also dependent on viscosity of the plasticizer/polymer?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1069
Registered: 2-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: cool.gif

[*] posted on 9-1-2017 at 13:57


Also I am thanks for Dornier. Harmonic mean.....1/(0.12/0.9+0.88/1.77) = 1.59 g/cm3.....is a new thing, information for my. Very interesting.......LL........:cool:



Safety explosive Alfred Nobel 1867. Safety ecologic detonator Dr. Liptakov 2015, inventor CHP and Lithex
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Dornier 335A
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 229
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-1-2017 at 05:49


To get an idea of how much the plasticizer hurts performance, I plotted calculated detonation velocity and pressure of a PETN/paraffin mix vs fraction paraffin:

Detonation velocity:
quIGi1e.png - 10kB

Detonation pressure:
s4hapjI.png - 9kB
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 686
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 10-1-2017 at 06:20


Nice, where did you get the data from?
I use a PETN PE at the moment with 14% binder/plasticizer and I calculated the detonation velocity to be around 7000 m/s which agrees with what you have on your VOD graph.


[Edited on 10-1-2017 by greenlight]




The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fulmen
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1576
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bored

[*] posted on 10-1-2017 at 07:34


Interesting, but also misleading (I think). I assume you're using theoretical density here, and in reality that's very hard to accomplish.



We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2880
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 10-1-2017 at 11:01


Do those graphs only take into account the density variation (for example playing with Kamelet's and the simple harmonic mean of densities of paraffin wax and PETN) or also the impact of the paraffin wax onto the oxygen balance and the overal energy output?

Can you share a little the calculations behind the plot/graph?

Funny to see that the attenuation becomes less with the increasing % wax --> at 40% must be close to 5 km/s and stil over 100 kbar...I wonder to see extrapolation up to 100% wax...theorically should be positive VOD and pressure by extrapolation... while practically of course should be 0...

Would be nice to turn your plot from .png to .jpg sothat your plot doesn't show at first preview like a black board (this dissappear if you click on it).




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 2744
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

[*] posted on 10-1-2017 at 15:29


Having seen vacuum degassing used to eliminate or at least minimize bubbles and voids when casting composite rocket fuel grains, I wonder if anyone has tried adapting vacuum processing to plastic explosive manufacture?



Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2  

  Go To Top