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Dark Alchemist
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[*] posted on 9-12-2015 at 20:15
Storage of detonators


I have searched everywhere and come up with little information on storage of completed detonators.

My idea was to get a steel tool box line it with foam and then create individual chambers for each cap.
Each chamber would be just far enough from the next to prevent premature det from shock if it were to go of.
in between the compartments would be spacers made from alternating layers of kevlar and high density foam this allows the kevlar to catch fragments and the foam to the shock if one was to go off prematurely.

As for the caps themselves they would be vacume packed and wrapped in a bag made from several layers of kevlar.

Does anyone think this would work?
if not assuming you had caps made from chemically stable primary how would you store them?

How does the army and quarries store theirs?
And how have you guys stored yours if at all?




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[*] posted on 9-12-2015 at 21:12


I never stored a cap. But commercial caps are just stored in a box,like 100 in each box.

Could suggest to store your caps in sawdust in Polystyrene foam to prevent bumping when transporting.
But maybe use Berta caps like Liptakov, these look pretty stable with no primary at all just DDT compostition.
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[*] posted on 9-12-2015 at 21:30


That DDT composition sounds interesting is that a chlorate mix?
Could you link a method of manufacture.

Like the idea of sawdust though and sand bags could be used instead of kevlar it would be several times cheaper.
You know I might actually use that idea it never occurred to me hmmm....

I hope this topic sparks more interest its not something I see discussed readily.







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[*] posted on 10-12-2015 at 04:57


It would probably work just fine. With homemade detonators, chemical stability is often the bigger issue, since residual acid in base charge or primary may catalyze decomposition.
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[*] posted on 10-12-2015 at 05:50


I always make primary up for detonators as I need them, but I would like to make up some caps soon that I would be able to store for a couple of months or so.

I was thinking of using 800mg PETN recrystallized from acetone as the base charge and 150-200mg Lead azide made with PVA as the primary charge with a small amount of black powder pressed on top. I know that I don't need that much lead azide but I like to ensure initiation with no risk of failure at all.
These should be equal to a no. 6 cap from what i remember and I think they will be storage stable.




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[*] posted on 10-12-2015 at 09:22


I am happy to see a storage safety thread, before the accident is always the best time to think about these things.

Storing caps so they don't propagate is a good idea. I would suggest that physical distance between the caps is more important, easier to achieve and CHEAPER than Kevlar & etc. Sawdust, cardboard, newspaper, closed cell foam or whatever else is cheap and on hand for the spaces between individual caps.

Chemical stability and compatability between base, primary and any igniter is obviously going to be important in a storage situation, and compatability with capsule materials is wise to consider... Mercury fulminate doesn't like Aluminum caps bodies, HTMD doesn't like metals at all, azides don't like Copper, for starters.

Obviously, you won't store caps in the same magazine as det cord, EM used in main charges, bulk explosives, fireworks (or practically anything else). The requirements for a "cap box" include having a lid designed so that it can lift up on the hinges & hasps to a degree allowing gas from an accidental explosion to vent rather than rupturing the magazine. Generally, construction is steel with such things as sheet rock, particle board, hardwood or plywood as a lining.

image.jpg - 124kB

Not having legal issues is also nice.

If you are in the USA, please do realize that storing explosives improperly is a major issue for BATFE- You can make explosives for your own use, but you can't store them improperly, distribute them in any way, use them in commerce without an appropriate license. Also DOT will not be happy with you if you move them on public roads.

If you're storing, you need to keep them in a proper explosives magazine. Which probably means you got your BATFE license to manufacture, including showing them your magazine...




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[*] posted on 10-12-2015 at 14:29


Quote: Originally posted by greenlight  
I always make primary up for detonators as I need them, but I would like to make up some caps soon that I would be able to store for a couple of months or so.

I was thinking of using 800mg PETN recrystallized from acetone as the base charge and 150-200mg Lead azide made with PVA as the primary charge with a small amount of black powder pressed on top. I know that I don't need that much lead azide but I like to ensure initiation with no risk of failure at all.
These should be equal to a no. 6 cap from what i remember and I think they will be storage stable.


PVA? does that have somthing to do with controlling crystal size on formation?
I was looking at Azides through conversion of sodium azide in air bags but the purification process at the time I think involved highly toxic gases so I instead decided DDNP even though it is one pain in the neck to synth from scratch in usable amounts.
I am currently experimenting with SADS to replace that.
Could you tell me your procedure for synthesising LA along with your method of fume control take in to account I have no fume hood.
Also pretty shure it releases toxic chemicals on det exactly how dangerous is it I heard some were its on par with cyanide as far as toxicity gos.

Also I get what you mean about ensuring proper det my caps are normally way over kill because o would rather not have to go over and see what whent wrong particularly with anything i have made 5-7gram primary 5-10grams base charge.

I dare say if this went of in my hand I would not be very happy. You know how we come up with charts for how much home made primary is equivalent to what commercial cap. Well we should come up with one for how much primary will remove how much of your hand or forearm just so people under stand how serious this stuff actually is.


[Edited on 10-12-2015 by Dark Alchemist]




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[*] posted on 10-12-2015 at 20:58


The PVA coats the crystals when they form resulting in a less sensitive product to static discharge and friction.
Crystal size is controlled with stirring and addition speed.
I obtained my sodium azide from an airbag and it wasn't too bad as long as you open it carefully and don't touch the pellets inside.

I won't go into detail as this is a detonator thread, but yes, I synthesize my Lead azide in a fume hood. A solution of Lead nitrate in distilled water is placed in a beaker and heated with a mechanical overhead stirrer in it for agitation and a solution of Sodium azide in distilled water is dripped in slowly. The PVA is added to the first solution.
You must be very careful with the Sodium azide when it is in solution.

Lead azide does release toxic by-products on detonation but for small testing amounts wear a respirator and for larger amounts like in an actual cap used in a charge, you wouldn't want to be near it anyway;)

Any blasting caps would do bad damage to the human hand if your holding them because when you pick something up and hold it, your grip upon it is quite strong and makes for very good confinement. This will increase the damage to the object that is confining the explosive when it detonates. Not saying that the cap wouldn't badly damage your hand and remove fingers anyway, the confinement of closing your hand around it when holding it would make it worse.
The caps you speak of above would easily take a hand and some forearm among damaging other things (hearing/shrapnel wounds).






[Edited on 11-12-2015 by greenlight]




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[*] posted on 10-12-2015 at 21:51


That's interesting with the PVA
Would that work with other primaries?
i like that idea a lot.
Out of curiosity were did you come by it? It sounds familiar like I have seen it somewhere before.
the cap hand thing was meant as a distasteful joke though I see your point and its for this very reason I tape a length of string to the end of mine and carry them that way.
I probably shouldn't be joking about that though.
Pretty shure I'm not the only one who's seen the picture of the kid who chewed on a cap his Dad left laying around....... Tragic
I have to say it is probably thanks this people like this I still have all my fingers seeing these horror pics instil a deep seated respect for energetic compounds one can never be to careful .




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[*] posted on 10-12-2015 at 23:25


I am not aware of the Polyvinyl alcohol being used in the manufacture of other primaries.
There is also dextrinated Lead azide but I was put off that after reading an article where an employee at a manufacturing facility lost a hand after moving a 5 gram pile of it and it going off for no reason at all (my guess would be static electricity).
The PVA method of synthesis is documented in a video on the explosiopedia channel on youtube.

I have also seen the kid who chewed on a blasting cap a long time ago on an anti explosive site which also had some pretty stupid warnings and facts on it. One of the funniest ones being that ANFO mixtures can be made touch and friction sensitive:o




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[*] posted on 11-12-2015 at 12:24


My grandfather, back when dynamite and caps could be bought by basically anyone, used to store his caps high up above where any child could reach in a hole augured/bored into a corner beam of his tool shed. He covered the opening of the hole with a disc of steel IIRC, but I can't remember at the moment how it was attached. The dynamite was stored at a different location of course. I never knew my grandfather, I heard all of this from my father who was a small boy at that time.



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[*] posted on 11-12-2015 at 13:46


Perhaps something such as this:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/used-us-militar...

might be a good plan? I've got a similar length container that's more... boxy?
I'm thinking that burying it so one out sticks out of the ground, perhaps with a post digger or a shovel, with the other end sealed could work a bit like a well.

Store your caps hanging at different lengths, on a piece of string or such, with markings showing which one is closest to the top or bottom, or inside of another container (perhaps soup cans refilled with sand, open topped?) and just hang those down instead.

Your quantity of storage would be very limited but on paper it seems like it would be very safe. And if the seal is good, water and weather resistant.




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[*] posted on 11-12-2015 at 21:05


I store mine in the middle of a bucket of dry sand. If they ever go off the shrapnel would be contained and the noise almost non-existent. I feel very confident that they are stored safely this way even though I do not use primary in mine thanks to Dr. Liptekov and his ingenuity.

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[*] posted on 12-12-2015 at 04:11


https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=24...
There are lot if videos on Liptakov's channel.
www.youtube.com/channel/UCU5Pwrkfoj9UeO1IGXZUjgQ
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[*] posted on 13-12-2015 at 13:21
storage detonator


Kecskesajt repeatedly suggest an easy option. Safe, non-toxic system is Berta. Therefore NPED. The most stable system is composed as ETN, Al, shotgun synthetic propellant. Propellants contain professional stabilizing agents for every nitro esters. Thus also for ETN. Reliability DDT is high. High stability and non-toxicity. Details on Liptakov channel. This detonator you can shoot a slingshot against a wall. Nothing happen. Only damage, of course. (no try it) Storage 5-25 C. Best 15 C.
Dr. Liptakov
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[*] posted on 13-12-2015 at 22:48


Wow the doc himself I didn't realise you were a member of this forum.

I have just recently been watching your channel and must say keep up the good work.
Thanks for your awnsers every one I'll be looking into those detonators
And comparing against my current ones it will involve however a complete new set of chems but I must say definitely worth it.




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[*] posted on 14-12-2015 at 06:20
storage NPED


Thanks, safety for me and others amateurs deminers is a main reason, why I it all developed a do it. And propagation as a freely accessible patent. Systems NPED of course exist from Nobel Laboratory, but with PETN and other complication. But Penta-Erythritol as precursor is mostly unavailable. Therefore using erythritol as freely accessible precursor. When plunging into an explosive detonator is very important "feel their own security."
It is a crucial moment. And, of course, storage. In short, inside is nothing dangerous. In other words, inside is nothing of friction and random shocks. Nothing, what degrades or reacts with metals. Is possible to perform multiple types of cavities. Fe, Cu, Al, Cr, Brass, solid plastic. These are all reasons and good long storage conditions. In name of thread. Maybe is happen, that DDT will be not perfectly. At some conditions, according technology produce. But is it better, than (poisoned produce) and sensitive primary in shaking hands. I do not know how for others, but for me sure. Dr. Liptakov
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[*] posted on 14-12-2015 at 13:38


Ha for shure!
my hands have started shaking while handling Ap.
It really just makes the situation worse.
Soaking them in warm water prior helps to relax them I have found.
Tiger balm aka deep heat works as well.

How many of you have had troubled sleep because of stored primary?
I had some HMTD stored under isopropl alcohol in my bottom draw
And the whole night kept thinking about how some slight reaction could make it go off.

Eventually I got up wrapped the bottle in a towl went and took it to the shed and wrapped it in another towl before placing in an empty draw.

Peroxides give me the hebemajebees not from bad experience or anything but from the horror story's.






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[*] posted on 14-12-2015 at 14:39
sleep


That's what I mean. Constant doubts. It will be something? Happened something? Slow reaction? Degradation peroxide? Man behaves like a fool. This detonators are on sh -error. Security, and restful sleep is the most important. Dr. Liptakov :-)
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[*] posted on 15-12-2015 at 13:13


Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  
My grandfather, back when dynamite and caps could be bought by basically anyone, used to store his caps high up above where any child could reach in a hole augured/bored into a corner beam of his tool shed. He covered the opening of the hole with a disc of steel IIRC, but I can't remember at the moment how it was attached. The dynamite was stored at a different location of course. I never knew my grandfather, I heard all of this from my father who was a small boy at that time.


My mistake, apparently it was the strychnine (poison) which was kept in the hole in the beam and the blasting caps in some sort of little cardboard box behind a high beam.




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[*] posted on 15-12-2015 at 23:56


Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand  

My mistake, apparently it was the strychnine (poison) which was kept in the hole in the beam and the blasting caps in some sort of little cardboard box behind a high beam.


It is odd how people, even at times when information was more or less limited, had some sort of intuition/common sense that had them do things like this? I mean, if he had stored the caps the in beam, they could have destroyed it. I honestly admire the times when people were left to their own devices, and did not rely on regulations to take care of them.

I do not store detonators, I make them for use. The little Christmas lights/electric matches I use are ready made for use when I need them, and I keep these in a simple box. When needed, I simply put primary into them on sight, and then place them in the charge.

If I were to store detonators, I would definitely want them to be like Liptakovs Berta (which I intend to try and make someday, when I have the time to experiment, maybe after finals), as I would be far less worried about residual acids or accidental bumping/dropping, and could, as he put it, sleep soundly.
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[*] posted on 16-12-2015 at 10:57
storage


Well, thanks. Draconis says important thing and it is different using in time. Even in profi laboratories is constantly used HMTD. In controlled conditions. Because is inexpensive and have perfect kicking properties. And amatheur activity is in basically as laboratory. If is not a man fool. No toxic, steam smoke also not. This way or that way I prefer using primary, what only burning from flame. Or hottest iron. Dr. Liptakov
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[*] posted on 16-12-2015 at 18:04


Quote: Originally posted by KesterDraconis  

It is odd how people, even at times when information was more or less limited, had some sort of intuition/common sense that had them do things like this? I mean, if he had stored the caps the in beam, they could have destroyed it. I honestly admire the times when people were left to their own devices, and did not rely on regulations to take care of them.


The commercial caps and dynamite of the time were handled by many average Joes (farmers and such) and basic practical information regarding storage and handling would have been common talk and basic knowledge. Look at some of the magazines and other reading material from those times, lots of practical information regarding home use of explosives. Dynamite was a common tool and was understood the way many now understand common tools available today. Putting the caps in the beam is probably not the best idea you are correct, but it was only a glitch in memory that made me think that. Also, the risk of a commercial cap going off on its own is almost nil and even if it did it was only a tool shed and damaging one beam would not bring it down unless the shed was very poorly designed. The biggest danger by far, if there are children anywhere around, is for children to get hold of a cap and blow a hand off or worse.




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