SunriseSunset
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Argon gas price?
Does anyone have an idea of how much money it costs to acquire a small, and efficient sized cylinder of Argon gas? A fairly efficient size suitable to
use for a decent number of small experiments which call for using inert gas.
I'm wondering how to normally shop for the proper size of a cylinder, the cost to have it filled up and what the price is for the gauges/manifolds
required to make things work out the best.
Any information and guidance is very appreciated!
[Edited on 26-12-2015 by SunriseSunset]
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stygian
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The smaller bottle you get the more it costs, making a decent sized bottle worthwhile. Argon is stored at high pressure and thus even a small bottle
is going to be rather expensive. Fairly cheap regulators/flow meters are available but are not precise and can waste gas. At my local supplier (who
get bottle shipped in weekly) an 80 cu ft bottle was nearly $300, a 20 cu ft bottle only half that. It really is worth getting the bigger cylinder. I
don't exactly remember the price of the argon itself but it worked out that if you got the small bottle you basically screw yourself.
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Dr.Bob
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If any people want to get a real cylinder, I do have a few gas regulators that I need to catalog and sell, but if you are interested, let me know.
They are for larger cylinders, should work for nitrogen, argon, helium, and other inert gases. I have not looked at prices for them, but I am happy
to match or beat any other reasonable price. Be aware that oxygen usually has a different thread, so it requires a special regulator designed for it.
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Maker
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I paid £155 for 4000 liters (decompressed volume) for TIG welding (It is still 99.999%), which is a bit steep, I've found another supplier (BOC with
the hobbyweld deal) which I believe comes in at slightly over £100.
It will of course differ in the US but hopefully this can help UK members, sorry it's no use to you.
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elementcollector1
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http://www.amazon.com/IRONWOOD-DESIGN-RBBlox-Bloxygen-Preser...
Not a whole lot, but if you only need a small amount, this might be a possibility.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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SunriseSunset
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Hahahaha all of this information just helped a lot but the funny part is, the Bloxygen might turn out to be perfect! Thanks guys
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j_sum1
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If you only need a small amount, there are some other possibilities.
Fine wine shops sometimes sell aerosol cans of the stuff for use in resealing (over)expensive wines. Aussie example
It also comes in non-refillable bottles for use in welding. This is what I ended up getting.
[Edited on 27-12-2015 by j_sum1]
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SunriseSunset
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Do you think either of those things would be large enough to purge a
24/40 250ml 3 neck RBF (half full) with a miniature pressure equalized addition funnel and tiny condenser.
I imagine using two of the Bloxygen Finish Preserver canisters. Prior to the reaction, put one attached to the top of the reflux condenser, and have
the 2nd attached to the top of the addition funnel, then pushing out the air out through the 3rd neck, and putting a stopper on it the moment I stop
spraying. Would have to have someone give me a hand or two obviously to do this. Then put a balloon on the top of the reflux condenser. and stoppering
off the lid of the addition funnel. The reflux is a 96 hour one using anhydrous THF and LAH. A methylation
I'd probably use electrical tape to attempt keeping all possible openings more air-tight including the balloon to prevent the argon escape over the
course of that time span. Do you think this would work out?
[Edited on 27-12-2015 by SunriseSunset]
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j_sum1
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The wine purger and bloxygen will be low pressure and equal to a few litres at 1atm. One should theoretically be plenty but a second in reserve would
not be a stupid idea.
The welding bottle is at high pressure and needs a regulator. I can't remember how many cubic feet it holds but it will be sufficient for many tasks
similar to.what you describe.
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careysub
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I acquired a 20 cu ft argon bottle at a local welding shop for $110 recently, refills are $15 or so. A regulator cost about $36. It is the equivalent
of 80 Bloxygen cans. If you ever get to the point of using a dozen Bloxygen cans you have spent about as much as the cylinder set-up. After that the
cost advantage is something like 50-1.
[Edited on 27-12-2015 by careysub]
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JJay
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Quote: Originally posted by SunriseSunset  | Do you think either of those things would be large enough to purge a
24/40 250ml 3 neck RBF (half full) with a miniature pressure equalized addition funnel and tiny condenser.
I imagine using two of the Bloxygen Finish Preserver canisters. Prior to the reaction, put one attached to the top of the reflux condenser, and have
the 2nd attached to the top of the addition funnel, then pushing out the air out through the 3rd neck, and putting a stopper on it the moment I stop
spraying. Would have to have someone give me a hand or two obviously to do this. Then put a balloon on the top of the reflux condenser. and stoppering
off the lid of the addition funnel. The reflux is a 96 hour one using anhydrous THF and LAH. A methylation
I'd probably use electrical tape to attempt keeping all possible openings more air-tight including the balloon to prevent the argon escape over the
course of that time span. Do you think this would work out?
[Edited on 27-12-2015 by SunriseSunset] |
I'd use a U-tube filled with sulfuric acid instead of a balloon, with gas inlet adapters on top of the addition funnel (with a hose leading to the
argon source) and reflux condenser (with a hose leading to the U-tube). You'll want to make sure the apparatus is completely purged... that will
require running several volumes of argon through it.
(Oh and I probably should mention that I've never actually done this before, so possibly others may have sage wisdom that I would have never thought
of.)
[Edited on 27-12-2015 by JJay]
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SunriseSunset
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Yeah... I'm beginning to think that with this reaction that there's really no room for an error. I don't like the whole idea of explosive peroxides,
the idea of having ~220ml of THF exploding would probably be lethal for a good 12 foot radius =( I don't like this idea now. Especially since, like
you said, it would be mandatory to purge the system with several or more volumes of inert gas.
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JJay
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LiAlH4 should make quick work of any peroxides that form.
You definitely do want to keep water or acid from mixing with the reaction mixture. I don't think a fire in the reaction mixture would be lethal to a
12 foot radius, but it might not be a bad idea to do the reflux behind a metal screen. Safety glasses are of course mandatory.
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MrHomeScientist
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My local Airgas has a small retail shop that I simply walked into and purchased a 40 cu ft bottle for one or two hundred bucks, plus a flow meter to
dispense the gas.
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JJay
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Vogel suggested that you can often use hydrogen or nitrogen as inert gas. Helium works but is a bit pricey. I think carbon dioxide would interfere
here.
As was mentioned elsewhere, you could probably get away with using mineral oil instead of sulfuric acid in the bubbler. I think Vogel would have used
mercury.
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Dr.Bob
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Hydrogen is not inert, and is likely one of the most dangerous gases to work with possible, for fire risk. Nitrogen is cheap and much simpler than
hydrogen to work with and will act inert for most chemistry, other than some metals. I have used hydrogen and it can be used safely, but any leak is
likely to generate explosive mixtures with air, so it needs to be a good, non-sparking, hood. I would prefer to just use a hydrogen generator now a
days, but they still cost more than a tank or a balloon, so I still use tanks, but you do need to be careful. Even more fun once you add Pt, Pd, or
Ni. The real advantage that argon has is being heavy enough to not leak out of a flask as fast as nitrogen, plus it is slower to diffuse as well and
non-static as well. Great for glove boxes, but more expensive than nitrogen.
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JJay
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Hydrogen actually would be inert in this reaction unless a catalyst were added.... You can't really make a blanket statement that such and such
material is not inert. Even liquid fluorine is inert under the right circumstances
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Dr.Bob
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I'm not saying that it is not inert to your reaction, but if it leaks anywhere, presuming that you are on planet earth, the mixture with air is
explosive at almost any concentration. Fluorine may be non-reactive or stable in a certain situation, but it is not considered inert by most
chemists. It is also very dangerous to have leaking in any situation. While nitrogen or argon are not inert to everything, and can suffocate you,
if leaked into the air, they will not cause any immediate danger, fire, or burns. Hydrogen can ignite with nearly any spark, not just in the
presence of catalysts. You might as well just use natural gas, it has a slightly narrower explosive concentration range.
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JJay
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob | | I'm not saying that it is not inert to your reaction, but if it leaks anywhere, presuming that you are on planet earth, the mixture with air is
explosive at almost any concentration. Fluorine may be non-reactive or stable in a certain situation, but it is not considered inert by most
chemists. It is also very dangerous to have leaking in any situation. While nitrogen or argon are not inert to everything, and can suffocate you,
if leaked into the air, they will not cause any immediate danger, fire, or burns. Hydrogen can ignite with nearly any spark, not just in the
presence of catalysts. You might as well just use natural gas, it has a slightly narrower explosive concentration range. |
Hydrogen can't ignite with a spark unless it is in the presence of an oxidizer such as oxygen. The purpose of the hydrogen would be to displace any
oxygen in the apparatus.
The problem with using natural gas as an inert gas is that it is usually contaminated with reactive substances; using it as inert gas is a bad idea.
Nitrogen is not inert to all chemicals and conditions but it can be substituted for argon with no problems in most reactions. If you have good
ventilation and hydrogen doesn't interfere with your reaction, there is little reason not to use it instead--it's very easy to generate, and since it
has a low molecular weight (the lowest) and is lighter than air, it dissipates more quickly than, for example, THF vapor.
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