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XeonTheMGPony
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Being safe with the materials you make!
I was trying to find an existing thread as to the subject but came up empty, and I did not want to infringe on the Life after detonation thread.
I decided since I had some bones from a cow that I had got for the dogs I'd illustrate what 2 grams of HMTD will do to the bone to give new comers an
idea of what sort of power these devices can have on tissue!
In the pictures you'll see an un armed cap with a bone intact and the one that was fired below it.
What you see is all I could find in the snow after wards
Never under estimate risk, all ways respect the materials you work with, and oft there is no second chances! I would like to stress for all to learn
how to make proper electrical triggers, they are far safer and by far more reliable and easy to fabricate!
The cap was laying on top of the bone that's been shattered! it was unconfined as well! (During the det it was behind a blast shield and I was 100'
away (To put your mind at eas Bert) )
Perhaps a Mod could find all related threads and merge them as a sticky?
   
[Edited on 15-1-2016 by XeonTheMGPony]
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aga
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Woo !
No chance of getting even Moist, never mind Sticky.
Seeing as you can detonate stuff with impunity, how about doing some experiments with pig trotters ?
Cheap, and a close (enough) approximation to human bone & tissue (all tastes the same to us lizard aliens).
Charge, composition and weight must be recorded.
Set the charge at 1m from the pig-part, which is set vertically in free space (support it from the top)
Now THAT would be of Scientific interest.
No doubt that the Military have conducted this type of experiment before, yet there seems to be a lack of any photos on the web.
[Edited on 15-1-2016 by aga]
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careysub
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Quote: Originally posted by aga  |
Seeing as you can detonate stuff with impunity, how about doing some experiments with pig trotters ? |
\
Had a shop teacher who like to use trotters to demonstrate what power tools would do to mammal appendages.
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XeonTheMGPony
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The general rule is all ways respect what machinery and or energetic materials can do to you
I follow very strict protocols when doing any thing with equipment or chemicals, electricity, I seen too many people mangled over stupid and simple
things to ever want to join the club!
As the old saying goes: The devil is in the details! It is the little innocuous ones that tend to sneak up and bite you!
The stuff I see on you tube most of it should be simply labeled Darwin award Nominee entry videos, I am hoping some of them stumble on this.
If a simple 2 gram cap does that to a cow's thigh bone it will easily deflesh a hand (Proper term is degloving = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degloving) only not just the skin is removed!
Never under estimate the power of a small amount!
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ecos
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I think the problem here that all want to hear high bang!
I feel the problem when dealing with EM is about toxicity of EM
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XeonTheMGPony
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| Quote: Originally posted by ecos | I think the problem here that all want to hear high bang!
I feel the problem when dealing with EM is about toxicity of EM |
That too is another nuanced detail to all ways keep in mind! but when it comes to toxicity the poison is in the dose Vs time! Ironically that is much
more forgiving then rapid decomposition of an E.M.!
[Edited on 17-1-2016 by XeonTheMGPony]
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Bert
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Someone I know used to do a demonstration where he placed a 3" aerial salute inside a whole, fresh chicken from the butcher shop. It would be reduced
to little pieces, occasionally you would find an identifiable drumstick, but not much else identifiable.
Then, for one class he was in a hurry and forgot to remove the lift charge from the shell! Of course, the chicken carcass "mortar" shot that salute
shell RIGHT AT HIM, with about 3 seconds for him to run like hell before it went off.
For a short, fat middle aged guy, Dan ran amazingly fast that day.
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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ecos
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@XeonTheMGPony,
No one here speaks about how toxic is EM or its ingredients. This is important topic.
many things are toxic and this is not clear to all but I like the idea of your topic  .
Ethylene glycol [Wiki]
| Quote: |
Ethylene glycol is moderately toxic with an oral LDLo = 786 mg/kg for humans.[9] The major danger is due to its sweet taste. Because of that, children
and animals are more inclined to consume large quantities of it than of other poisons. Upon ingestion, ethylene glycol is oxidized to glycolic acid
which is, in turn, oxidized to oxalic acid, which is toxic. It and its toxic byproducts first affect the central nervous system, then the heart, and
finally the kidneys. Ingestion of sufficient amounts can be fatal if untreated.[10] According to the annual report of the American Association of
Poison Control Centers' National Poison Data System in 2007, there were about 1000 total cases resulting in 16 deaths. The 2008 American Association
of Poison Control Centers' National Poison Data System annual report lists 7 deaths.[11] |
TNT [Wiki]
| Quote: |
TNT is poisonous, and skin contact can cause skin irritation, causing the skin to turn a bright yellow-orange color. During the First World War,
munition workers who handled the chemical found that their skin turned bright yellow, which resulted in their acquiring the nickname "canary girls" or
simply "canaries." People exposed to TNT over a prolonged period tend to experience anemia and abnormal liver functions. Blood and liver effects,
spleen enlargement and other harmful effects on the immune system have also been found in animals that ingested or breathed trinitrotoluene. There is
evidence that TNT adversely affects male fertility.[22] TNT is listed as a possible human carcinogen, with carcinogenic effects demonstrated in animal
experiments (rat), although effects upon humans so far amount to none [according to IRIS of March 15, 2000]. [23] Consumption of TNT produces red
urine through the presence of breakdown products and not blood as sometimes believed.[24] Some military testing grounds are contaminated with TNT.
Wastewater from munitions programs including contamination of surface and subsurface waters may be colored pink because of the presence of TNT. Such
contamination, called "pink water", may be difficult and expensive to remedy. |
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Microtek
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What are you trying to say with those quotes? As far as I can see they (correctly) corroborate the view that toxicity of HEDMs are primarily of
concern to people working with it every day, or is exposed to very large doses (or who eat the product). Some of the precursors or byproducts are a
little more dangerous, but as long as it is only a little once in a while, there isn't much of a problem (there are exceptions of course;
organo-mercury compounds should never be taken lightly for instance).
[Edited on 18-1-2016 by Microtek]
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XeonTheMGPony
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| Quote: Originally posted by ecos | @XeonTheMGPony,
No one here speaks about how toxic is EM or its ingredients. This is important topic.
many things are toxic and this is not clear to all but I like the idea of your topic .
|
Again Toxicity is a dose Vs time factor, short of you trying to eat most the materials for breakfast you will be hard pressed to damage your self!
Even Azide (Very nasty and toxic compound) you'd need to eat at least >=700mg for a fatal dose at an average weight adult (10mg/Kg) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851150
Chemicals are not food (Well good amount are, just not most of the ones we are working within their current form) ! they are no more uniquely toxic in
E.M. then any other branch of Chem, thus I find it irreverent to this thread as even if you drank a bottle of ethylene glycol there is counter
measures ! (Ethanol to saturation till you got to hospital, This works for animals too (Given we are animals, it should figure logically but this does
not all ways hold true)
BUT if one of your charges goes off no amount of medication or surgery is going to put you back together like you where befor!
This may be why you find so few talk of toxicity as it is all ready known through out chemistry! But in E.M. you have a more unique danger that is
innocuous, That nice light fluffy powder doesn't seem to pose much threat, and it isn't till after wards most appreciate the hidden power of it!
Toxicity of ANY chemical should never be taken lightly non the less.
Edit* Corrected from conversion from grams as referenced to milligrams
[Edited on 18-1-2016 by XeonTheMGPony]
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Microtek
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You should correct that to 700 mg for a lethal dose sodium azide.
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Bert
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And possibly worry more about inhalation hazard of hydrazoic acid if you expose azides to an acidic environment... LD50 is 34mg/Cu. M (for mice)
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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aga
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It's also important to Dispose of waste with some care.
Can't just shove nasty shit down the drain, at least if you have any conscience at all.
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by Bert | | And possibly worry more about inhalation hazard of hydrazoic acid if you expose azides to an acidic environment... LD50 is 34mg/Cu. M (for mice)
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Something occurred to me last September and I wasnt sure what I was seing with the gas mask on getting fogged, gloves and the 385 cubic meter
extractor / hour running.
I had just opened a year and a half old container of NaN3 and was quite sure I saw some fumes coming off the container.
I dont know what hydroazoic acid looks like, but this definitely had the same aspect as NoX.
Can anyone who has seen gaseous Hydroazoic acid confirm what I saw?
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | It's also important to Dispose of waste with some care.
Can't just shove nasty shit down the drain, at least if you have any conscience at all. |
Agreed! Besides, Anyone playing with these sort of things should read Urbanski once or twice or thrice seems like a very good idea.
Sure, I love it for the historical aspects (which are fantastic), the différences in procedures and tolerances from country to country, reading the
differences between lab and industrial production but best of all is that for more than half of the EM's discussed there he also mentions how to treat
waste hazard or destroy the EM itself.
And that's just Urbanski. I've found wonders in SM Library.
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The_Davster
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| Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber | | Quote: Originally posted by Bert | | And possibly worry more about inhalation hazard of hydrazoic acid if you expose azides to an acidic environment... LD50 is 34mg/Cu. M (for mice)
|
Something occurred to me last September and I wasnt sure what I was seing with the gas mask on getting fogged, gloves and the 385 cubic meter
extractor / hour running.
I had just opened a year and a half old container of NaN3 and was quite sure I saw some fumes coming off the container.
I dont know what hydroazoic acid looks like, but this definitely had the same aspect as NoX.
Can anyone who has seen gaseous Hydroazoic acid confirm what I saw? |
Could have just been azide dust, inhalation of which is also very bad.
I have worked with acidic solutions of azide and been exposed to HN3. Have somebody spotting you or a mirror handy. Your eyes go red before you
notice any other toxic effects. You will also feel a bit weird in the head, but isolation of this symptom as unique and not psychological upon seeing
yourself having red eyes realizing you have a mild case of HN3 poisoning is difficult. At that time, time to get fresh air.
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Hennig Brand
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I have had the red eyes (very red!) at least a few times when working with hydrazine and azides and felt very weird and generally unhealthy as well.
The symptoms always cleared up, but I try to be more careful since I am a little worried about the long term effects of repeated exposure. Many of the
primary explosives dusts (ex. lead azide, DDNP, etc) and some of the secondaries as well (ex. picric acid) make me feel ill when inhaled even in very
small amounts. I started wearing a dust mask whenever loading caps and handling primaries after manufacture (especially when they are dry and easily
produce air born particles). As time goes on and I have more and more experience I am increasingly more careful to have good ventilation and breathing
protection.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Rosco Bodine
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Individual sensitivity could make some of the published toxicity data irrelevant by an order of magnitude for the individual who is the anomaly
.......or not the average rat. Lethality tends to be ambiguous to an extent, even for electricity, you see the case where someone is struck by
lightning, partially cooked by the experience and yet survives, while another person receiving what is a trivial shock by comparison is instantly
killed.
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Hennig Brand
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Agreed, I would need to dig for a reference but I have read two or three different times in different explosives texts that in the old days in
munitions factories that it was common to put people in a probationary period or roll when they started to work to see how their body would handle
being exposed to the various explosives and/or precursor(s) and other possible associated chemicals. It was very common to have individuals whose
sensitivities to one or more chemicals in a process be so great that it was not sensible to have them work there, especially when there were other
individuals available with much lower sensitivity.
"A risk-free world is a very dull world, one from which we are apt to learn little of consequence." -Geerat Vermeij
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Tsjerk
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There was a member on this website who described his accidental poisoning with HN3 about 5-10 years ago. The only thing I remember is that he is
Dutch... forgot his name... But the story was quite impressive. Dizziness and numbness of the face.
The physical effect of azide is the same as that of cyanide. Shutting down the oxidative phosphorylation, practically sufficating you without you
realizing it.
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by Hennig Brand | | Agreed, I would need to dig for a reference but I have read two or three different times in different explosives texts that in the old days in
munitions factories that it was common to put people in a probationary period or roll when they started to work to see how their body would handle
being exposed to the various explosives |
Urbansky in Tome 1 on Aromatics. Apparently people's reaction are unequal.
This, and the more well known "nitro headache" for some people working in nitroglycerine and other esthers.
Which seems logical when you see what they do to your blood vessels and how they are today used to save lives for the same reason.
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nitro-genes
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Funniest accident has been my attempt to cook castor oil with NaOH (caustic oxidation) to yield sebacates, the smell was incredibly strong fungi like
due to some octanols formed and lasted several weeks. The smell was so strong and persistent that it became quite nauseating to spend much time in it.
It was unlikely that any real toxins were formed IMO, but it also shows that physiological effects can occur through smell or even be in part
psychological.
Contact with NG has been the only time in which exposure to an EM really lead to obvious physiological effects for me. Some people mention they are
not affected by this to a great extend, though it gave me hours of an excruciating pulsating headache once. Didn't know how to hold my head anymore in
order to stop it. Could be dose related, since I spilled a small amount on my hands, and decided to wash it thoroughly after finishing what I was
doing. Really wish I had known about the caffeine to counteract back then. 
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | Really wish I had known about the caffeine to counteract back then. |
The long-term effects of chronic exposure are now believed to be quite damaging to health ─ making it prudent to eliminate exposure wherever
possible . . .
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nitro-genes
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You have a reference to that? That would be something to keep in mind for people regularly experimenting with ETN, PETN etc. Nitroglycerine is taken
up very fast and IIRC also metabolized very fast, the headache provides a quick and sure sign of any accidental exposure, whereas for other
nitroesters this doesn't occur as fast. If the damage of even small chronic exposure is cumulative, this is something better known.
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hissingnoise
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Yes, a long read but worth it . . .
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