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Author: Subject: making oxygen using sodium hypochlorite and metal catalysis
kemster90
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biggrin.gif posted on 23-1-2016 at 16:19
making oxygen using sodium hypochlorite and metal catalysis


So found out today through experimentation that when the bleach was heated then copper sulfate was added oxygen bbubbles were observed also a percipitate of copper hydroxide a small amount was formed was wondering if any one has and way to accelerate the process without using peroxide of course just bleach and catalysis havent tryed calcium hypochlorite
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j_sum1
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[*] posted on 23-1-2016 at 16:30


Try some cobalt chloride.



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AJKOER
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[*] posted on 23-1-2016 at 16:36


I recall that some transition metal oxides (like MnO2, CoO, CuO, Fe2O3,...) appear to do a good job at decomposing H2O2 as well. [EDIT] Expect similar with a hypochlorite.

The reaction with concentrated H2O2 should be avoided, as at least with one oxide, it is best described as simply explosive!

[Edited on 24-1-2016 by AJKOER]
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j_sum1
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[*] posted on 23-1-2016 at 16:40


Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
I recall that some transition metal oxides (like MnO2, CoO, CuO, Fe2O3,...) appear to do a good job at decomposing H2O2.

The reaction with concentrated H2O2 should be avoided, as at least with one oxide, it is best described as simply explosive!

[Edited on 24-1-2016 by AJKOER]

Yeah. But the OP was hoping to avoid peroxide and was interested in bleach.
CoCl2 is very effective and can theoretically be recovered.
I am not sure what else works.




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AJKOER
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[*] posted on 23-1-2016 at 16:52


Some hypochlorites are solids and inherently concentrated (like Ca(ClO)2, Mg(ClO)2.2Mg(OH)2,...). So my cautionary comment relating to concentrated H2O2 and the wrong oxide may apply here as well (I am deliberately trying to avoid discussing explosive compositions here).

[Edited on 24-1-2016 by AJKOER]
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annaandherdad
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[*] posted on 24-1-2016 at 08:28


I'll just mention that recently I was trying to produce a lot of oxygen cheaply, and tried H2O2 (expensive) plus bleach (cheap), to double the production from H2O2 alone. I found it impractical, because the low concentration of available bleach (8%) meant volumes of liquid that were too large for my purposes. So I stuck with simple H2O2. Also found a cheap source of concentrated H2O2 (hydroponics store near me).



Any other SF Bay chemists?
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Artemus Gordon
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[*] posted on 24-1-2016 at 12:05


Hi annaandherdad,
I'm in San Jose. What hydroponics store is that? Also, what do hydroponics growers use H2O2 for?
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[*] posted on 24-1-2016 at 12:15


Plant roots need oxygen.

The ancient belief is that they need well-drained soil, however the reason is the same - oxygen to the roots.

Deep Water Culture hydroponics (where the plants roots are always in water/nutrient) usually means that they have lots of air pumps and frit stones to try to oxygenate the water.

I would guess that H2O2 is sold as an emergency oxygen replenisher.




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Artemus Gordon
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[*] posted on 24-1-2016 at 12:46


Thanks aga,
I would have thought that its oxidizing properties would make it harmful to roots, but I did find a blog page that says you are right, although they say that the 35% stuff needs to be diluted about tenfold, which would seem to make selling the conc. stuff unnecessary.


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annaandherdad
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[*] posted on 24-1-2016 at 14:11


Artemus---It's the Hydroponic Connection, 2816 San Pablo Ave, Berkeley. They're selling I think 28% H2O2 for $20 for 4 liters.



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aga
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[*] posted on 24-1-2016 at 14:29


Quote: Originally posted by Artemus Gordon  
would make it harmful to roots ... the 35% stuff needs to be diluted about tenfold, which would seem to make selling the conc. stuff unnecessary.

Some people run tanks with tens or hundreds of thousands of litres of water.

If it was 3%, they would need to order an entire tanker of the stuff, rather than buy a few jugs.

Random link to give an idea of Scale :-

http://newsouthfoodcompany.com/hydroponic-lettuce-farm-circl...




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kemster90
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[*] posted on 25-1-2016 at 08:38


What are some catalysis of calcium hypochlorite to decompose to oxygen
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deltaH
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[*] posted on 26-1-2016 at 10:55


Some interesting literature:

http://web.ornl.gov/info/reports/1987/3445602637742.pdf

[Edited on 26-1-2016 by deltaH]




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Artemus Gordon
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[*] posted on 26-1-2016 at 12:00


Thanks, annaandherdad!
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[*] posted on 26-1-2016 at 13:07


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
I recall that some transition metal oxides (like MnO2, CoO, CuO, Fe2O3,...) appear to do a good job at decomposing H2O2.

The reaction with concentrated H2O2 should be avoided, as at least with one oxide, it is best described as simply explosive!

[Edited on 24-1-2016 by AJKOER]

Yeah. But the OP was hoping to avoid peroxide and was interested in bleach.
CoCl2 is very effective and can theoretically be recovered.
I am not sure what else works.
MnO2 can be recovered out of dry cell carbon-zinc batteries and used as a catalyst for the H2O2, should be nice &cheap.
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annaandherdad
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[*] posted on 26-1-2016 at 22:09


Quote: Originally posted by Artemus Gordon  
Thanks, annaandherdad!


You're welcome, I'll get the brand name of the H2O2, you might find someone selling it closer to you.




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AJKOER
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[*] posted on 30-1-2016 at 10:53


Note the comments in this Youtube video on mixing H2O2 + MnO2, https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&...

Important points to be aware of are the concentration of the H2O2, shape of the container, and whether it is enclosed, or partially enclosed with an exhaust tube (for say O2 delivery) that may be too small to address the rapid pressure buildup.
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[*] posted on 30-1-2016 at 21:56


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Try some cobalt chloride.


Have you tried this to make sure it works? I'm not questioning your credibility it's just that every time I've tried that I produced very little gas, and most of the gas was chlorine. I am looking for a way to make oxygen from bleach because hydrogen peroxide is expensive here. (and regulated)
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[*] posted on 30-1-2016 at 22:23


Yes. That is why I suggested it. Admittedly only once. I had to make the CoCl2 from CoSO4 first. I dumped it in a 3/4 full bottle of bleach and it overflowed and continued producing gas for quite some time. No smell of Cl2 and the gas relit a splint as per the traditional test.



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AJKOER
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[*] posted on 3-2-2016 at 12:32


This is apparently but one metal that liberates oxygen when added to HOCl, namely powdered silver (source, see "A Comprehensive Treatise on Inorganic and Theoretical Chemistry", by Joseph William Mellor, page 271 at https://books.google.com/books?id=AnnVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA271&... ) with the formation of a white precipitate of AgCl. To quote:

"According to A.J. Balard, finely divided silver immediately decomposes hypochlorous acid with the evolution of oxygen, and the formation of silver chloride."

The latter Hypochlorous acid can be formed upon adding vinegar to bleach (along with sodium acetate), or treating aqueous NaOCl (the active ingredient in chlorine bleach) with CaCl2 and CO2, with CaCO3 precipitating. Alternately, one can employ a very dilute mineral acid to form HOCl from chlorine bleach, but not stronger acids which readily liberate gaseous chlorine from the NaOCl.

[Edited] Fortunately, AgCl can be converted back to elemental silver via NaOH forming Ag2O and the addition of an appropriate reducing sugar (see, for example, discussion at http://www.finishing.com/195/29.shtml ).

[Edited on 4-2-2016 by AJKOER]
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[*] posted on 4-2-2016 at 10:45


Quote: Originally posted by Artemus Gordon  
Hi annaandherdad,
I'm in San Jose. What hydroponics store is that? Also, what do hydroponics growers use H2O2 for?


You'll know that when your roots turn Brown and viscous from excessive heat in the water tank that leads to / bacteria / fungi.
H2O2 can also be used to clean your tanks, clay pebbles etc.

Otherwise, as for the oxygen to the roots part it's a placebo. There's enough oxygen in the water if the tempeature is normal.
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