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Author: Subject: Better propellants,anybody?
Herr Haber
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[*] posted on 2-3-2016 at 09:00


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  

my whistle mix can reduce iron oxide into iron metal!!
its as if the iron oxide is a 2ndary oxidizer as well as a catalyst??

but that effect is only observed in my acetate substituted whistle mix and doesn't seem to happen in my citrate substituted whistle mix batches


You should look for some strobe compositions. Then you'd be really surprised.
It acts like a catalyst because when decomposing it creates hot slag. Obviously the oxygen libereated will be used too.
Pretty much the same thing that happens with thermite: add enough heat ---> decomposition occurs.
You'll notice that some strobe composition are sulfate based. That was quite a surprise when I saw that for the first time :)

[Edited on 2-3-2016 by Herr Haber]
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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 2-3-2016 at 10:17


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  


my whistle mix can reduce iron oxide into iron metal!!
its as if the iron oxide is a 2ndary oxidizer as well as a catalyst??



What's the composition of the whistle mix?




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mysteriusbhoice
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[*] posted on 2-3-2016 at 14:48


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  


What's the composition of the whistle mix?


60%KClO3
20%CH3COONa(sodium acetate)
10%Sugar
2%iron oxide
8%vaseline


[Edited on 2-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 2-3-2016 at 17:34


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  


What's the composition of the whistle mix?


60%KClO3
20%CH3COONa(sodium acetate)
10%Sugar
2%iron oxide
8%vaseline




Do you have any direct evidence of iron forming?




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mysteriusbhoice
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[*] posted on 3-3-2016 at 19:12


i will make a video of the iron forming but i will need a magnet to prove it
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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 3-3-2016 at 19:19


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  
i will make a video of the iron forming but i will need a magnet to prove it


Looking forward to that! :)




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[*] posted on 3-3-2016 at 20:10


Do you actually get a decently loud whistle effect from an acetate fueled chlorate oxidized mix with substantial sugar as a secondary fuel.



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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 4-3-2016 at 05:53


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  


What's the composition of the whistle mix?


60%KClO3
20%CH3COONa(sodium acetate)
10%Sugar
2%iron oxide
8%vaseline


What iron oxide (II) or (III) ?
--> black FeO, orange Fe2O3 or magnetite Fe3O4?

Let us calculate:
1°)60gr KClO3 (MM =122.6) = 0.4894 mole
--> generates 1.4682 moles O and the rest is KCl

2°)20gr CH3COONa(sodium acetate) (MM= 82) = 0.2439 mole
This is equivalent to CH3Na (or CH4) + CO2

3°)10gr Sugar (C6H12O6) (MM=180) = 0.0555 mole
This is equivalent to 6 C and 6 H2O (hence the name hydrates of carbon)

4°)2gr iron oxide let us leave this aside

5°)8gr vaseline (-CH2-)n (MM group unit = 14) = 0.5714 mole

CH3Na or CH4 needs 4 O to burn
CH4 + 4 O --> 2 H2O + CO2
so 0.2439 mole would require 4 times more O = 0.9756 mole O to burn.

6 C needs 12 O to burn
6 C+ 12 O --> 6 CO2
so 0.0555 mole would require twice as much O = 0.111 mole O to burn.

CH2 needs 3 O to burn
CH2 + 3 O --> CO2 + H2O
so 0.5714 needs 3 times as much O = 1,7142 mole O
-->With this sole ingerdient, you go over your oxygen availablility from KClO3 (1.4682 moles O)

--> Your mix is not OB balanced and on the reducing side (overfueled) but in the open with O2 freely available, it seems doubtfull to me you could get reduced iron (thus Fe) out of such a hot mix in the open.
--> Your mix is not at its maximum power and tempered by the exces fuel.

When mixing NaClO3 and Iron powder or raw carbon dust I used to do golden foutain... with Aluminium flakes it was silver foutain...


If you do test the presence of iron with a magnet,please do test also the initial mix...and note that some iron oxydes are magnetic (see magnetite).

To me looks like a common unbalanced (non stoechiometrical) intimate suggar/chlorate mix.

Whistle mix without whistle is it really a whistle mix?
I think you work with too tiny amounts and unconfined...that's the probably the reason why.

Maybe try your powder into a tiny 0.5 cm diameter on 3 cm lenght multilayer glued paper roll (with glue stopper on one side) --> light it form the open end...it should fly and whistle and maybe a little banger.

Beware of scaling up with chlorates what works correctly in tiny amount can turn into a violent explosion.




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[*] posted on 4-3-2016 at 06:22


@PH_Z:

Yes, I'd worked out too yesterday that the mix is over-fuelled. In those hot conditions iron oxide could act as an oxidiser but I'd really like to see the evidence for elemental Fe being formed.




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[*] posted on 4-3-2016 at 22:00


im working on the video now and im gonna test the suspected iron with a multimeter for conductivity

it may just be magnetite!!
i tried to collect as much magnetic iron out of the slag as i can and i indeed got the same silvery spheres however i notice they broke apart easily and did not give me a reading on my multimeter!!

possibly the multimeter is just cheap or the stuff is just magnetite and i got a piece of magnetite for comparison to test them

well heres the raw videos
https://youtu.be/jAr0cvKNxd8
https://youtu.be/lP8g1flDTAM

videos might be still uploading so be patient

i may revisit this again

[Edited on 5-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
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mysteriusbhoice
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[*] posted on 4-3-2016 at 23:00


i made a core burning rocket out of the mix
it did not work even with that
it appears to be magnetite and not iron so the damn silvery shiny stuff is magnetite

furthermore my iron oxide starting material was magnetic meaning it probably had some magnetic oxides present already

anyway that aside i wouldn't really call it a true whistle mix because though it does whistle its extremely airy sounding

www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3HsyT09yFk

[Edited on 5-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
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[*] posted on 5-3-2016 at 01:08


whats interesting is my sodium citrate whistle mix actually whistled
https://youtu.be/gyPA1k6V2-I

70%KClO3
25%sucrose
4%trisodium citrate
1%Iron oxide

[Edited on 5-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 7-3-2016 at 08:35


Nice



PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

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