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Author: Subject: High Temperature Safe Potassium-Chlorate based Rocket Candy
mysteriusbhoice
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[*] posted on 28-2-2016 at 05:24
High Temperature Safe Potassium-Chlorate based Rocket Candy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cbygReqks

i have cooked up this stuff 10x now and even left the stove on with leftover mixture still in it and it all turned black but did not ignite

Also when i ignited the blackened leftover mixture it burnt like H3
thats for a future video however possibly a new way to make H3

on temperatures near or higher than 200 without mixing is very dangerous !!

I have tested several mixtures and still test before cooking the stuff by putting a tiny amount in the pan and leaving it to see if it ignites and putting a normal mixture of chlorate and sugar beside it after a few minutes the normal chlorate mixture ignited while this one just turned black.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdmF16cvoGk
The link above is me purposely leaving it on the pan for too long at slightly higher temperature and it lasted around 10 minutes after the video till it was all black!! and even then it did not ignite but burnt super fast when i scraped it off and tested it

my conclusion is this mix is safer than even nitrate and will not ignite even when it begins to decompose

[Edited on 28-2-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
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[*] posted on 29-2-2016 at 14:14


The combination of melting and stirring makes me very nervous! Molten chlorate mixtures have the nasty habit of detonating with frightening violence. It may not happen for another hundred batches, but when it does, it will send the spoon flying through the roof.

You should also be aware that chlorate based mixtures have (at least in my experience) a rather steep pressure-burnspeed curve. So increasing motor pressure just a little bit may very well lead to a RUD.
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mysteriusbhoice
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[*] posted on 29-2-2016 at 18:34


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
The combination of melting and stirring makes me very nervous! Molten chlorate mixtures have the nasty habit of detonating with frightening violence. It may not happen for another hundred batches, but when it does, it will send the spoon flying through the roof.

You should also be aware that chlorate based mixtures have (at least in my experience) a rather steep pressure-burnspeed curve. So increasing motor pressure just a little bit may very well lead to a RUD.


i have tested the friction sensetivity with a file at high temperatures by heavily
mixing it and i used only a small amount and no Detonation

this stuff still is scary because if it does go off at this temp it will deflagrate or even detonate and the power of this Rcandy is crazy

btw you need the sodium citrate because when sugar is present it increases the burn rate to about whistle mix speed But the cornstarch slows it down and prevents it from igniting on the stove

one of my batches without cornstarch caught fire and there was a huge cloud of smoke but that was when i tested that batch the same way by leaving it on high temperatures

i made a video about making H3 by carbonizing the starch of the chlorate rocket candy on the stove at 200 degrees celsius and scraping it up later IT BURNS INSANELY FAST

but im afraid to attempt it again for obvious reasons

video link comming soon
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[*] posted on 29-2-2016 at 18:36


also about the rockets i have had one detonate on me when i made the nozzle too small and it sent pvc flying 20 feet and left my ears ringing also i light all of them with all with my laser so i can escape

and i use a slow burning fuse
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[*] posted on 29-2-2016 at 19:47


Melting point of sugar is around 150 c°
Melting and decompostion of potassium chlorate is around 200c° higher.

Question:

Dont you think you have a suspension of chlorate in your molten fuel (as I do with Sorbitol and KNO3)
If if burns as low as 200 c° isnt it because of the sugar?

I never have to get that high with Sorbitol (mp around 100c°) and just mix my KNO3 + Fe2O3 when it's molten, then pour in my containers.
Since I do that for light and smoke I even add coarse Mg turnings and fill my containers in several times.
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mysteriusbhoice
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[*] posted on 29-2-2016 at 21:59


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Melting point of sugar is around 150 c°
Melting and decompostion of potassium chlorate is around 200c° higher.

Question:

Dont you think you have a suspension of chlorate in your molten fuel (as I do with Sorbitol and KNO3)
If if burns as low as 200 c° isnt it because of the sugar?

I never have to get that high with Sorbitol (mp around 100c°) and just mix my KNO3 + Fe2O3 when it's molten, then pour in my containers.
Since I do that for light and smoke I even add coarse Mg turnings and fill my containers in several times.

sugar has a mp of 140-160

this mix partially decomposes at 200 turning into carbon

higher temperatures are dangerous because the chlorate can react when the carbon forms and is left for too long or the temperature is high enough

in my 2nd video i purposely let the sugars and starches decompose into carbon in order to make H3 and it worked!! but its dangerous as fk and i wont attempt it again

btw add some sodium citrate to your sorbitol chlorate mix because
sodium citrate increases the burn rate dramatically due to the fact that it can also be used as whistle mix when mixed with sugar!!

in a sense this stuff is whistle mix with the wrong proportions and with starch added

i have another vid below of whistle mix using the exact same recipe without the starch and at near stoichiometric proportions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc89C302RI0

this mixture is more dangerous and autoignites above 140 degrees
and yes it whistles but im done with whistle rockets they are too scary

http://www.rsc.org/learn-chemistry/content/filerepository/CM...

this says that normal sugar mixtures will ignite at 159 celsius

however says that lactose and chlorate mixtures will ignite at around 200 WHEN CARBON BEGINS TO FORM

adding a little starch causes the carbon to form in my mixture before it spontaneously ignites
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[*] posted on 29-2-2016 at 22:19


this mixture is highly versatile
it can become one of the following pyro compositions using the same ingredients just with different proportions and or cooked at different temperatures

i even had a few batches that REDUCED the iron oxide into iron metal that is magnetic and shiny
its as if the iron oxide acted like a secondary oxidizer and a catalyst but that's a mystery maybe
some of you can solve or know of.

1:Whistle mix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc89C302RI0

2:Rocket candy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cbygReqks

3:H3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjb6UFpS2wM

4:Smoke mix
just dillute the chlorate more

the last video above is the same mixed partially decomposes into H3
though its not as fast a ball milled H3 its faster than H3 mixed without milling

if you ball mill this i wonder if it will be awesome or if i had decomposed the whistle instead of the Rcandy in the presence of starch but im afraid to do that experiment!!

and i wont ever do this one again either because of how stupid it is

[Edited on 1-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
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[*] posted on 29-2-2016 at 22:27


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  


this mix partially decomposes at 200 turning into carbon

higher temperatures are dangerous because the chlorate can react when the carbon forms and is left for too long or the temperature is high enough

That margin is far too low for me. That's why I use Sorbitol and KNO3. Besides, KNO3 decomposition is endothermic so you really need to give it a good kick (like a catalyser) to really get it going.
Downside: it's mildly hygroscopic. A problem that I solve with black powder mixed in NC lacquer to ensure ignition. It forms a solid plastic that doesnt let water through.



Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  

btw add some sodium citrate to your sorbitol chlorate mix because
sodium citrate increases the burn rate dramatically due to the fact that it can also be used as whistle mix when mixed with sugar!!

I noticed that! Burn rate is almost too fast. I dont have citrate but tons of benzoate if I wanted to try a whistle mix. I should do that someday.


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  

however says that lactose and chlorate mixtures will ignite at around 200 WHEN CARBON BEGINS TO FORM

I only use lactose in powder form, no melt cast. Besides, when I use lactose it's to make smoke bombs / flares with Strontium nitrate / potassium perchlorate and some parlon or PVC. The idea is to burn the container (AL tube) and add some titanium or magnesium for a more spectacular effect.

Consider that all my composition are used indoors (underground, so no risk of fire) and I have to take at least a bit the health of the spectators / victims.
So no greens, blues or other colors that would need really nasty metals.
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[*] posted on 6-3-2016 at 04:17


the whistle mix variation of this mixture in a pen tube
https://youtu.be/gyPA1k6V2-I
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[*] posted on 7-3-2016 at 08:01


@Mysteriusbhoice,

I like your blue LASER ignition system...it is good from a safe distance for fuses.

But beware for your plastic pen tubes with whistle mix...you don't attach them so there is a risk they start to fly randomly and with such a flame it could set fire anywhere inside your house...imagine it goes under your sofa...




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[*] posted on 7-3-2016 at 09:10


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
@Mysteriusbhoice,

I like your blue LASER ignition system...it is good from a safe distance for fuses.

But beware for your plastic pen tubes with whistle mix...you don't attach them so there is a risk they start to fly randomly and with such a flame it could set fire anywhere inside your house...imagine it goes under your sofa...




EDITED:COPPER 2 is the devil and it blew up and gassed the house
started to smell like when i mixed it with sulfur before it autoignited and then BOOM PSSHJHHHHSHSHSH

potassium citrate tho with a little copper oxide might be safe but yea organic or soluble copper = will cause devastation

[Edited on 8-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
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[*] posted on 8-3-2016 at 04:43


@Mysteriusbhoice,
Although interesting colourfull expermient for the short term storage and in limited amount...
--> I'm more than eager to see your video about it!

But do not forget that copper (II) is not very stable when mixed with chlorates...probable unstability of Cu(ClO3)2 via mutual oxydoredox.

Cu(2+) may also favor catalytic decomposition at lower temperature...that's probably the effect you expose.

Such mixes usually smell chlorine and are thus quite corrosive to surrounding metals. I had very bad corrosion of coffee tin can with it.

Be sure your citric acid is fully neutralized. Any remaining acidity is bad news with chlorates.

Better use unsoluble basic CuCO3, CuCl(OH), CuO or Cu(OH)2 with chlorate mix to get the blue-green flame colour...and of course no sodium allowed --> favor potassium citrate for best colour expression. Too hot a flame will shift the color to white, too much fuel will mean a lot of carbon will shift it to light green-grey (carbon burn yellow-orange).
It is the combination of chloride atom from chlorate and Copper cation that yield the blue-green color....see very common use of PVC/Copper dust in pyro green-blue flares.

If it is a moldable fuel mix that you want maybe try with other bicationic or tricationic metals that are more compatible with chlorates...
--> Calcium, Zinc, Iron (II), Aluminium, Magnesium, Manganese (II),... citrates

[Edited on 8-3-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 8-3-2016 at 05:29


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
@Mysteriusbhoice,
Although interesting colourfull expermient for the short term storage and in limited amount...
--> I'm more than eager to see your video about it!

But do not forget that copper (II) is not very stable when mixed with chlorates...probable unstability of Cu(ClO3)2 via mutual oxydoredox.

Cu(2+) may also favor catalytic decomposition at lower temperature...that's probably the effect you expose.

Such mixes usually smell chlorine and are thus quite corrosive to surrounding metals. I had very bad corrosion of coffee tin can with it.

Be sure your citric acid is fully neutralized. Any remaining acidity is bad news with chlorates.

Better use unsoluble basic CuCO3, CuCl(OH), CuO or Cu(OH)2 with chlorate mix to get the blue-green flame colour...and of course no sodium allowed --> favor potassium citrate for best colour expression. Too hot a flame will shift the color to white, too much fuel will mean a lot of carbon will shift it to light green-grey (carbon burn yellow-orange).
It is the combination of chloride atom from chlorate and Copper cation that yield the blue-green color....see very common use of PVC/Copper dust in pyro green-blue flares.

If it is a moldable fuel mix that you want maybe try with other bicationic or tricationic metals that are more compatible with chlorates...
--> Calcium, Zinc, Iron (II), Aluminium, Magnesium, Manganese (II),... citrates



well i found that out
i did a small test batch and it went up as soon as i put it in
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[*] posted on 8-3-2016 at 06:57


btw i tried various fuels and i found a way to make flares with potassium palmitate!!
and mixed it with chlorate and it creates nice slow burning flares
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[*] posted on 8-3-2016 at 12:02


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  
btw i tried various fuels and i found a way to make flares with potassium palmitate!!
and mixed it with chlorate and it creates nice slow burning flares

Try candle wax, KClO3, glucose for strong fumigenes :D
A 33cl coke tin can will make a huge cloud very effective in closed areas (not indoor because of the heat and flame) without too much wind...and extremely good in forest by cold weather...
The fumes goes up and then down to the ground by cooling generating a londonian smog on which the shadow of trees is projected by the burning KClO3, Wax, Suggar candle :D:P;)




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[*] posted on 20-3-2016 at 23:03


too bad cuz i dont live in a cold country
so it will just be a smoke signal!!

my next experiment is adding sugar or citrate to vaselate to get a better detonation!!
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[*] posted on 22-3-2016 at 06:36


Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice  
too bad cuz i dont live in a cold country
so it will just be a smoke signal!!

my next experiment is adding sugar or citrate to vaselate to get a better detonation!!

Vaselate...is a kind of cheddite explosive
Vaseline (paraffin grease)/KClO3 mix will not detonate without a good detonator...usually chlorate mixes only deflagrate strongly... and may maybe detonate if in quite large quantities (that allow for sufficient self-confinement).




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[*] posted on 25-3-2016 at 06:54


i know that and im thinking of synthesizing some HMTD to detonate the vaselate
and compare the normal recipe with the recipe containing citrate
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[*] posted on 25-3-2016 at 11:43


HMTD is bad choice as a detonator for obvious safety concerns...but since you are already playing with chlorates and whistle mixes, you know the risks.

Avoid metal contact with HMTD especially the copper and Cu(2+) from you special sensitive whistle mix...MnO2 might also be tricky...




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[*] posted on 25-3-2016 at 18:04


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
HMTD is bad choice as a detonator for obvious safety concerns...but since you are already playing with chlorates and whistle mixes, you know the risks.

Avoid metal contact with HMTD especially the copper and Cu(2+) from you special sensitive whistle mix...MnO2 might also be tricky...

I read about hmtd long ago and i know that for the detonator i cant put the metal from an electric match directly onto it

im also going to use a plastic container to house it in and fully neutralize the hmtd in the synthesis to reduce the sensetivity

[Edited on 26-3-2016 by mysteriusbhoice]
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[*] posted on 26-4-2016 at 10:07


Wait, why are you using HMTD? At that point you might as well use ATP, it's technically more stable. But to detonate it, seems like you could just use your laser since it's so unstable.

On another note, do you buy or make your KClO3? Have you ever considered throwing it in a perchlorate cell? You can make a GSLD for this somewhat easy. Maybe even make some perchloric acid, and then ammonium perchlorate.

I have never seen sodium citrate used in any SRB's. This is good stuff. But recently I've started using a little bit of sodium metabisulfite in my mixtures of KNO3 and sugar for a little extra kick. I tried it out the other day and it certainly produced quite the burn rate. With a little additional sulfur powder in it too, every time I tried lighting the wet mixture it would ignite a little but it would produce so much gas the torch would get blown out instantly. After burning quite a sizeable amount of this mixture, I noticed extremely little solid remnants, maybe even less than with plain KNO3 sugar mix. I'm off of work today so I'm going to experiment some more.




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[*] posted on 10-5-2016 at 09:12


Quote: Originally posted by Chemist_Cup_Noodles  
Wait, why are you using HMTD? At that point you might as well use ATP, it's technically more stable. But to detonate it, seems like you could just use your laser since it's so unstable.

On another note, do you buy or make your KClO3? Have you ever considered throwing it in a perchlorate cell? You can make a GSLD for this somewhat easy. Maybe even make some perchloric acid, and then ammonium perchlorate.

I have never seen sodium citrate used in any SRB's. This is good stuff. But recently I've started using a little bit of sodium metabisulfite in my mixtures of KNO3 and sugar for a little extra kick. I tried it out the other day and it certainly produced quite the burn rate. With a little additional sulfur powder in it too, every time I tried lighting the wet mixture it would ignite a little but it would produce so much gas the torch would get blown out instantly. After burning quite a sizeable amount of this mixture, I noticed extremely little solid remnants, maybe even less than with plain KNO3 sugar mix. I'm off of work today so I'm going to experiment some more.


i make my KClO3 using MMO anodes i bought
and sodium citrate is amazing shiz it accelerates the burn rate

i made a rocket without it and it performed poorly compared to the one with it

now the question is why is it better !!
perhaps its like using sodium benzoate but more acessible

also adding a little starch allows chlorate mixtures to be heated strongly until it carbonizes but if the temp is above 200 celsius it will explode like any mixture heated that strongly

also sodium acetate works but that fuel is DANGEROUS its highly explosive and unstable and any cooking will cause it to detonate it works too well and gives INSANE BURN RATE!!
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[*] posted on 10-5-2016 at 10:06


This is just why I haven't started with energetics yet! 1 out of 100 times, my huge (Sod's Law) batch of potassium acetate-copper perchlorate rocket mix doesn't burn, and I instead end up with no hands and a hole in my ceiling.

If you can get an EPP license, you can get free-flowing Na and K ClO4 from a number of suppliers. I think that, stochiometrically, you would need 65 grams of NaClO4 and 53 grams of 90% One Shot H2SO4 drain cleaner (an excess of 4 grams of NaClO4) to synthesise, in theory, 50 grams of HClO4, which can then be just blunt-force distilled with a Bunsen burner to yield very pure HClO4. Be very careful when you distill, as I think that careless distillation results in Cl2O7, which is not good. I'd recommend these mixes in theory:

CuClO4 - sodium benzoate
NH4ClO4 - sodium benzoate
CoClO4 - sodium acetate

These are just the first things that come to mind. If I can get some distillation apparatus, I might experiment with some of them.
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[*] posted on 10-5-2016 at 23:35


An easier way to perchloric acid is to use highly concentrated HCl (37-40 %) and NaClO4. In the mix, NaCl is practically insoluble (common ion effect), so filtering off the NaCl will give you a mix of hydrochloric and perchloric acids. This can then be heated (or distilled) to drive off the HCl. By heating the liquid to 135 C, the perchloric acid will be pure enough to not give a precipitate with AgNO3.
Problems with this method are:
- You need a acid resistant filter, preferably a fritted glass Büchner
- You really need a very highly concentrated hydrochloric acid or the solubility of NaCl will be appreciable

Advantages:
- If your NaClO4 contains some chlorate it will be destroyed
- You avoid high temperature distillation of HClO4 and all the dangers associated with that
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[*] posted on 11-5-2016 at 02:33


The other problem is that I don't have a hot plate. I'm setting up a home lab at the moment, and a hot plate is something I can't afford. My method involves high temperature HClO4, but there is no need for separation of H2SO4 and HClO4 as the excess of NaClO4 will see to that. Anyway, I can distill it off and destroy any Cl2O7 with distilled water, before it destroys my glassware.

[Edited on 11-5-2016 by Eosin Y]
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