johncena
Harmless
Posts: 13
Registered: 23-12-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Dissolve Styrofoam? Nah...
Hello everybody! I want to make and study a little bit of the priorities of styrofoam dissolved in a solvent (acetone, gasoline or a non-polar one).
Well, I tried doing it, but...
Firstly, I used nail polish remover containing acetone and i put it in a beaker and next I added the styrofoam ot it. Nothing really happened. Next, I
made an another batch using Lighting Gas - paraffin hydrocarbons (probably long chains of alkanes and cycloalkanes). I'm not really sure what this
actually is, but I think it might be kerosene. Ok, good, I have it. As for the acetone try, I repeated evrything and expect what... again nothing! The
only visible change I was able to see was that the styrofoam broke apart and there were many floating balls of it on the top of the gasoline.
So, my question is - why did nothing happen? All the solvents were non-polar as the styrofoam is, but why didn't the long chains of it broke? (Sorry
for my English, I'm currently really busy, so I'm not really paying attention of what I'm writing).
|
|
|
Ozone
International Hazard
Posts: 1269
Registered: 28-7-2005
Location: Good Olde USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Integrated
|
|
I'm thinking that if it won't dissolve in acetone, it isn't styrofoam, e.g. expanded polystyrene. The form fitting foam for packing is polyurethane,
and it is resistant (a mixture of dimethylformamide, methanol, and maybe DCM will soften it for removal from packed items). Starch packing peanuts,
not at all. I you have starch, they will dissolve in water.
And, the chains do NOT break upon dissolution--they slowly relax, and they swell. Eventually, if lucky, they dissolve-but, the chains are intact.
Look up good vs ideal (theta) solvents for polymers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theta_solvent
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
|
|
|
ave369
Eastern European Lady of Mad Science
Posts: 596
Registered: 8-7-2015
Location: No Location
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If it's really styrofoam, acetone or gasoline should first turn it into jelly or putty. This "fire jelly", essentially solid napalm, is useful for
starting campfires.
Another reason why it failed to dissolve is mislabeled lighting gas. In my country, denatured ethanol is often sold as lighting gas, and the label
says "paraffin". If you have denatured ethanol, styrofoam will not dissolve in it.
Smells like ammonia....
|
|
|
100PercentChemistry
Hazard to Others
Posts: 117
Registered: 21-8-2015
Location: On the island of stability
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It probably isn't styrofoam. Although I put styrofoam in acetone nail polish remover(not 100%) and nothing happened.
|
|
|
johncena
Harmless
Posts: 13
Registered: 23-12-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks for the replies! I'm sure that the lamp oil is something like gasoline or kerosene, because it has the distinctive smell of them. It's highly
flammable, too. As for the styrofoam - I really don't think it's something else - I took 2 different pieces of styrofoam (a small one from an old toy
and a bigger one from the package of my new TV).
|
|
|
hyfalcon
International Hazard
Posts: 1003
Registered: 29-3-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Try using gasoline straight from the pump. If it's styrofoam, it will dissolve into mush that you are capable of repairing fiberglass with in a
pinch.
|
|
|
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
Genuine styrofoam, expanded polystyrene (EPS) will dissolve in acetone or hydrocarbon solvents very, very well. This is a convenient test for whether
it is polystyrene.
Foams that are not polystyrene that are commonly encountered are polyurethane, polyethylene and PIR (polyisocyanurate, those rigid silver foil covered
panels). These do not dissolve in those solvents.
The effect of acetone or gasoline (etc.) on expanded polystyrene makes a very impressive demonstration (it is included in one of Shakhashiri's chem
demo books), a large chunk of styrofoam will vanish into a small quantity of solvent since the solubility is high, and the density of the foam low (as
low as 0.016).
This makes things filled with polystyrene vulnerable to ruin in any solvent ever gets into them. I have used EPS in several projects, using thin
plywood sheet, fiberglass, or carbon fiber to make very light, rigid, inexpensive structures (a book shelf, work tables, router tables, telescopes).
But I have been having second thoughts due to the possibility of solvent exposure by accident. Using spray paint or spray adhesives on a structure
made with EPS is a no-no if there is any possibility of penetration. Once any solvent gets into a foam structure it can undergo considerably collapse
over time, not necessarily al at once.
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4516
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
Yeah, quite often if I have a lot of styrofoam to dispose of, I'll first reduce its size a lot by breaking it all down with acetone. I take an oven
tray, pour just enough acetone in it to cover the surface, and then keep adding chunks of styrofoam. It looks quite comical, just shoving huge blocks
of the stuff into the tray. Afterwards, I pour off the excess acetone (which can be reused to break down more styrofoam) and squeeze as much as I can
out of the polystyrene goop. Then I spread the PS out on the oven tray and let it sit in the sun for a few days. By the time it's done that, you're
left with a sheet of dense, brittle, white plastic. It's easily broken up into small pieces, so I think I will use it to make styrene when I have time
to.
|
|
|
MrMario
Harmless
Posts: 46
Registered: 2-2-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Maybe offtopic, but is it possible to obtain styrene from polystyrene?
|
|
|
karlos³
International Hazard
Posts: 1520
Registered: 10-1-2011
Location: yes!
Member Is Offline
Mood: oxazolidinic 8)
|
|
@MrMario:
It is, by destructive distillation
This thread http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=7641 showed up first on a quick search, altough another subject, styrene from polystyrene is
discussed.
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6229
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: Unmoved
Member Is Offline
Mood: Organised
|
|
The thread MrMario linked contains a lot of other discussion.
If you want the patents related to extracting the styrene monomer...
Here are the links.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3901951.pdf
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6018085.html
I haven't read them through but a quick glance at the newer of these suggests it is relatively straightforward.
(Isn't that always the way with patents?)
|
|
|
MeshPL
Hazard to Others
Posts: 329
Registered: 20-4-2015
Location: Universe
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It is possible yhat your nail polish remover contained little or no acetone? I heard that in some new polish removers ethyl acetate is main
ingredient...
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
Styrofoam + gasoline = napalm? So would no-ethanol gasoline and/or white gas be better?
http://www.instructables.com/id/Easy-to-make-and-safer-to-br...
[Edited on 27-3-2016 by chemrox]
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Napalm refers to Sodium (Na) Palmitate, it is a anionic carboxilic acid soap used to somehow gellify gasoline...for the military incendiary purpose...
Styrofoam has nothing to do with it...
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
Member Is Offline
Mood: LaGrangian
|
|
Actually there are a number of compositions called, "napalm." The Norwegian army made one using fish oil. Napalm B was made for the Vietnam war using
polystyrene and gasoline + benzene. It made for a stickier and longer burn than the palmitate "soap" version. This latter lead to an urban legend that
napalm could be made with soap flakes and gasoline. For all know there might be a composition of the right soap and gas that gels. I believe the term
"napalm" has evolved to include any gelled flammable mixture including natural oils. It was apparently used in ancient times as "Greek fire." http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Napalm
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
