| Pages:
1
2 |
a nitrogen rich explosive
Banned troll
Posts: 176
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Repentant
|
|
Tetramines and others
Anyone got anything on tetramine-metal-oxidiser salts?
Synthesis of (Al(NH3)4)(MnO4)2 and the other tetramine permanganates is possible, although they all decompose in water. Tetramine copper perchlorate
is unbeliavably nasty, with energetic decomposition possible. From what I know, tetramine metal persulfates are the least sensitive. Anyone got any
decent synthesis routes - TA zinc persulfate / Al persulfate might be quite useful.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Maybe do a search with the search engine of the forum for "tetramine copper perchlorate" under user "Laboratory of Liptakov"...
Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 is quite stable...not to confuse with its hydrazino brother that is for sure very unstable!
Persulfates anions tends to be more unstable than nitrates or perchlorates ones into amino-oxoanion-metal-complexes.
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
Posts: 1335
Registered: 2-9-2014
Location: Technion Haifa
Member Is Offline
Mood: cool.gif
|
|
TACP
Well, well. With TACP - Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 - are experience 3 years and it without damage (still 20 fingers) or any problems at manipulations.
Development running almost every day. All experiences show a very low sensitivity on friction. Compatibility with metals, especially Copper,
Aluminium, Iron as cavity can be used. After prepare arises octoammine copper perchlorate. During drying and any dehydration of crystals, arises
tetraammine complex, which is pretty stabile. For example, in close jar are properties same one year. According a thousand attempts, is VoD at 1,8
g/cm3 7500 m/s. Brisance of output segment of detonator, are almost identical, as from ETN at same conditions... LL...
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Now let's not get carried away about the RE of TACP which is about 1.01 or 101% TNT and sensitivity to initiation about the same or a bit less as TNR.
I am very familiar with TACP and have tested it several times. A pariffinated version I have previously described along with a convenient synthetic
procedure. TACP is one of the easiest reasonably stable cheaply available HE suitable for use as a base charge to synthesize and is obtainable under
mild and safe conditions.
BTW there is no "octaammine" but there is a hexaammine which initially forms as a darker purple cubic crystal that is an unstable "oversaturated with
ammonia intermediate" and the dark sapphire blue hexaammine complex fairly quickly loses 2 ammonias to atmosphere from the drying crystals and forms
a more bright blue "cobalt blue" tetraaminne more stable form with no change in crystal form obtained on drying. I think a porosity of the crystal
occurs from the leaving 2 ammonias which may aid the soaking up of molten paraffin to seal the crystals and function as a fuel for the oxidizing
explosive that is TACP.
I'm sure my synthesis is posted so a search should turn it up.
Here ya go ...linkified
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24817&...
Ah! Liptakov ....imitation is the sincerest form of flattery  I like what you
have done with the place ...going further. But let's not get "inventors euphoria" making us exaggerate the RE there 
[Edited on 4/11/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  | Maybe do a search with the search engine of the forum for "tetramine copper perchlorate" under user "Laboratory of Liptakov"...
Cu(NH3)4(ClO4)2 is quite stable...not to confuse with its hydrazino brother that is for sure very unstable!
Persulfates anions tends to be more unstable than nitrates or perchlorates ones into amino-oxoanion-metal-complexes. |
There is a strong suspicion I have that the method of synthesis allowing for excessively large and sensitive "rogue" crystals to develop with the
analogous hydrazine complexed *nickel* perchlorate is what resulted in the "grinding under hexane" accident at the Austin Texas laboratory a few years
ago. Grinding a primary explosive in a mortar was a Darwin Award manipulation to be a "task" better suited for an expendable robot anyway, and I
wonder HOW on the planet where I live anyone would think that would be just a swell idea as a human activity....Go Figure!
Murphy's Law takes no prisoners!
I think it is likely for the "spontaneous detonation accidents" that crystal size may be the offender same as has been isolated reports for many
different energetic materials, which may also include infamous copper azide....where it may be that in some colloidal size or very limited crystal
range the material itself could have useful stability, but beyond that limiting mesh ....then a definite danger resides. The compound itself gets a
bad reputation for being treacherous when in fact it may be the crystal size that is the determinant factor for danger, more than simply the molecular
composition.
[Edited on 4/11/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Ni(N2H4)3(ClO4)2 is said to explode even in water solution when swirling with a spoon...that the experimenter hit the side of the glass container with
the spoon or that there where too big crystals in the beaker frictionizing each other is not told...
Anyway it must be taken as a serious warning for handling...
I personnally got Cu(N2H4)2(NO3)2 turquoise blue precipitate, and it is sensitive, it burst into flame while drying in cold open air, most of the
batch was destroyed by formation of N2, black-brown Cu sponge...upon mixing the hydrazine hydrate alcoholic solution and the Cu(NO3)2 one... no doubt
the perchlorate will be even less sympathic/friendly.
[Edited on 12-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Silver fulminate is an example of what I am speaking, where the material itself is notorious for sensitivity, but there are also reported experiments
where even large quantities have been handled without incident.
There have been reported cases of spontaneous detonation for lead azide and even for lead styphnate, and many many incidents for tetrazoles .......and
the mechanism may not be the same for all cases but crystal dimension is a prime suspect.
Anyway, there are misleading accounts published in the literature, that have become unscrutinized "scientific folklore and legend" which are subject
to careful fact checking and review. There are more than a few examples so it is not unusual for me to read things and then raise an eyebrow of
skepticism and think that maybe there is more to that story than just what is reported and the preliminary conclusion may not be all there is to know
about that subject.
WRT the hydrazine complexed nickel perchlorate, there is an analogous semicarbazide complexed nickel perchlorate and there may even be possible a
mixed salt or double salt of the two. (and likewise there could be a nitrate / perchlorate double salt)
But the literature is non-existent about this subject which remains mysterious. I read about these obscure compounds or "imagine" them to exist
.......lucky me
[Edited on 4/12/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | Silver fulminate is an example of what I am speaking, where the material itself is notorious for sensitivity, but there are also reported experiments
where even large quantities have been handled without incident.
There have been reported cases of spontaneous detonation for lead azide and even for lead styphnate, and many many incidents for tetrazoles .......and
the mechanism may not be the same for all cases but crystal dimension is a prime suspect.
Anyway, there are misleading accounts published in the literature, that have become unscrutinized "scientific folklore and legend" which are subject
to careful fact checking and review. There are more than a few examples so it is not unusual for me to read things and then raise an eyebrow of
skepticism and think that maybe there is more to that story than just what is reported and the preliminary conclusion may not be all there is to know
about that subject.
WRT the hydrazine complexed nickel perchlorate, there is an analogous semicarbazide complexed nickel perchlorate and there may even be possible a
mixed salt or double salt of the two. (and likewise there could be a nitrate / perchlorate double salt)
But the literature is non-existent about this subject which remains mysterious. I read about these obscure compounds or "imagine" them to exist
.......lucky me
[Edited on 4/12/2016 by Rosco Bodine] |
You are right that for sensitive compounds crystaline form and size may give increased sensitivity...inner crystal latice default may induce stress
sothat the slightest stimulus is over the activation energy of detonation at that specific point of the crystal --> extreme sensitivity.
True that the real scientific criticism is to redo the one shot experiment (with due safety cautions and in tiny amounts) and see if what is written
holds the line...and is true. If not, then ask yourself why and test again to understand what might have gone wrong then, or what was improved by the
present process...
It's like me...I have tested toluen and HNO3 69% and it does nitrate while in all my organic chem books I own and I have read they insist on the fact
HNO3 concentrated or H2SO4 concentrated is needed to perform the nitration by NO2(+)...even in seconds, you see reaction at the interface between
toluen and HNO3 69% evidenced by a yellow tinge...this at ambiant T° (20°) and without agitation thus not helping the reaction surface and kinetic
at all...
--> Books are sometimes wrong!
After a few days color is deep yellow-orange and the smell of bitter almond characteristic of nitrotoluens develops.
--> Nothing is better than self-experience and trials!
Triamino guanidine complexes might also be interesting polymers...
Or complexes of (O2N)3C-CH2-CH2-NH-NH2 and (O2N)3C-CH2-CH2-NH-NH-CH2-CH2-C(NO2)3
Or of (H2N-NH-N4C-NH-NH2) dihydrazino-tetrazene
Imagination and dreaming is on the safe side
Klapote is probably reading us and will test those for us and publish papers on those in less than a week  
[Edited on 12-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Klapotke / smoke key Their group of lab rats' best ideas are gifts from us!
They love their "dogs" so maybe once in awhile they will throw us a bone.
And on the experimental liquid fuel scene .......those kwazeee wabbits
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEDrMriKsFM
<object width=640 height=360><param name="movie"
value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KEDrMriKsFM?version=3&autoplay=0&showinfo=1&modestbranding=1&controls=1&theme=dark&vq=hd720&am
p;hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess"
value="always"></param><embed
src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KEDrMriKsFM?version=3&autoplay=0&showinfo=1&modestbranding=1&controls=1&theme=dark&vq=hd720&
hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width=640 height=360 allowscriptaccess="always"
allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>
|
|
|
a nitrogen rich explosive
Banned troll
Posts: 176
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Repentant
|
|
Azidoazide azide (C2N14)... It does actually exist!!!
I can't think of a better signature.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Wow this could come from back-to-the-future movie with the air skate board...or Rocketeer (Rocketman)
[Edited on 12-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Nope! Azido-azide would be N3-N3 since azothydric acid is HN3, N3(-) is considered a pseudohalide (cf Cl-Cl, Br-Br, I-I, N#C-C#N,...).
I gues that again you did it wrong...you meant bis-tetrazolylazide what would indeed be C2N14.
Let me say to you that we are not supposed to read between the lines of your mind...again think twice and reread before posting...
Also: What's the point with this tread?
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
Dornier 335A
Hazard to Others
Posts: 231
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Azidoazide azide is a rather questionable name Derek Lowe came up with in his blog post about 1-diazidocarbamoyl-5-azidotetrazole (http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2013/01/09/thi...).
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Thanks Dornier 335A for this gem/pearl.
I think that maybe they would have more stability if they had joined the two tetrazolyl groups not by the N atom but one by the N and the other by the
C.
Or an alternative isomer (N3-)2C=N-N=C(N3)2 (bis-diazidocarbyl azine).
Just for the beauty of it, they could try (N3)3C-N=N-C(N3)3 (C2N20) --> bis-azidoformyl azene (bis-triazidomethyl-azene).
Where goes the world if we have to correct not only typos and mistakes from new careless users, but also from writers outside this forum ... its like
a Sisyphus Myth (Le Mythe de Sisyphe in french)
[Edited on 13-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
Dornier 335A
Hazard to Others
Posts: 231
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
That isomer has been made, for example by the forum member Engager. It's called isocyanogen tetraazide in the literature and words like "sensitive"
and "explodes with terrible violence" are never far away. It's not nearly as bad as Klapötke's monster molecule though.
One molecule I'd like to see is 1,1'-azobis(5-azidotetrazole), C2N16. Considering that 1,1'-azobis(tetrazole) (C2H2N10) is already more powerful than
HMX and pictures of shattered lab equipment are included in the paper about it, it might turn out to be a really really bad idea.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A | That isomer has been made, for example by the forum member Engager. It's called isocyanogen tetraazide in the literature and words like "sensitive"
and "explodes with terrible violence" are never far away. It's not nearly as bad as Klapötke's monster molecule though.
One molecule I'd like to see is 1,1'-azobis(5-azidotetrazole), C2N16. Considering that 1,1'-azobis(tetrazole) (C2H2N10) is already more powerful than
HMX and pictures of shattered lab equipment are included in the paper about it, it might turn out to be a really really bad idea.
|
Another way to increase stability, density (cyano induces more density increase than azido) and stil a decent energy content increase is to replace
some N3(-) groups by C#N(-) ones
--> 1,1'-azobis(5-cyanotetrazole) (C4N12)
N#C-(CN4)-N=N-(CN4)-C#N
Or to go polymeric (or in the polymeric spirit) from there...
--> N3-(CN4)-(CN4)-N=N-(CN4)-(CN4)-N3
--> N#C-(CN4)-(CN4)-N=N-(CN4)-(CN4)-C#N
--> (-(CN4)-(CN4)-N=N-)n
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
a nitrogen rich explosive
Banned troll
Posts: 176
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Repentant
|
|
Sorry about my 'azidoazide azide' screwup. It was the only name I knew for it, and I have not particularly worked with explosive azides/tetrazoles
(they seem slightly too sensitive for garage chemistry.)
I can't think of a better signature.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive | | Sorry about my 'azidoazide azide' screwup. It was the only name I knew for it, and I have not particularly worked with explosive azides/tetrazoles
(they seem slightly too sensitive for garage chemistry.) |
Not only for garage chemistry ... but also for lab chemistry if you stil plan to work on it (or other insane HE) in the lab of your teacher...
Lab is full of glasware ...just remember the worst case scenario: glass schrapnels cut but also pierce...and once in flesh...hard to find and
extract...
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
a nitrogen rich explosive
Banned troll
Posts: 176
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Repentant
|
|
Don't I ever fucking know. One of my friends nearly died after a large flask blew up when he put 20g of NaOH in at the same time whilst synthing
silver fulminate.. The reaction was violently exothermic. Boom. As for HNP, I have been using body protection within an empty lab with all reactions
boxed into blast shields. Just RIP fume hood...
I can't think of a better signature.
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive | Don't I ever fucking know. One of my friends nearly died after a large flask blew up when he put 20g of NaOH in at the same time whilst synthing
silver fulminate.. The reaction was violently exothermic. Boom. As for HNP, I have been using body protection within an empty lab with all reactions
boxed into blast shields. Just RIP fume hood...
|
Show us photographs or link the newspaper article about that silver fulminate "accident" of "your friend" or please STFU with your bullshitting and
get off this serious science forum and don't come back here to waste our time until a good long while AFTER you grow a brain.
Here's a brand new nickel. Go buy a clue.
[Edited on 4/15/2016 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
a nitrogen rich explosive
Banned troll
Posts: 176
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Repentant
|
|
Eh?? 
1) When my friend is bleeding to death, I dont stop to take photos.
2) I'm 34. This happened in 1999, and there was no real internet then...
I can understand why you think that, but cynicism is unattractive.
I can't think of a better signature.
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
alt.engr.explosives goes back to 1998 and earlier and accidents of any significance were reported
cynicism isn't nearly as unattractive as bullshit like you have been steadily piling here, and you really need to find a peer group of other
bullshitters who are amused
BTW none of what you say rings true, it is like you have come here to pretend
Now here is 16 year old country mountain girl with a mandolin who means business
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXtZusLS-Jg
<object width=640 height=360><param name="movie"
value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SXtZusLS-Jg?version=3&autoplay=0&showinfo=1&modestbranding=1&controls=1&theme=dark&vq=hd720&am
p;hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess"
value="always"></param><embed
src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SXtZusLS-Jg?version=3&autoplay=0&showinfo=1&modestbranding=1&controls=1&theme=dark&vq=hd720&
hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width=640 height=360 allowscriptaccess="always"
allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>
|
|
|
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
Posts: 1335
Registered: 2-9-2014
Location: Technion Haifa
Member Is Offline
Mood: cool.gif
|
|
Yes. I using the same detector. But my detector shows this:......LL
|
|
|
a nitrogen rich explosive
Banned troll
Posts: 176
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Repentant
|
|
I know that what I'm saying might not ring true.
I believe that you have no substantial evidence to say that the bullshit is off the scale.
I know that you think I'm just a new attention seeker.
But please do not convince other people of your view: I have greatest respect for all of you, and I don't want false representations.
Sorry if what I said pisses you off.
I can't think of a better signature.
|
|
|
NeonPulse
Hazard to Others
Posts: 417
Registered: 29-6-2013
Location: The other end of the internet.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Isolated from Reality! For Real this time....
|
|
Any self respecting chemist would not mess with a large amount of silver fulminate in glass. Or even a large amount of silver fulminate do that
matter. Or any amount of silver fulminate for that matter Forget putting 20 g of NaOH on it. There's just no need since it's a pretty well researched
material with little use other than a lab curiosity in micro amounts or on fun snaps.
Nitrogen rich super explosive: this story may be fine for bombshock or TOTSE but you only set yourself up for ridicule telling them here.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
