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a nitrogen rich explosive
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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 06:39
Experimental explosives


Scientific Trigger Warning: All compounds/syntheses described in this thread are PURELY THEORETICAL.

I just had an idea: if hexametethylene diamine peroxide, why not HMD nitrate? I can't find anything on the web...
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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 07:57


I also thought about it...since HMDP contains two tertiary amine, maybe that it can catch a proton and its anion.
--> hexametethylene diamine peroxide mono salts and di-salts
HMDP nitrate
HMDP dinitrate
HMDP perchlorate
HMDP diperchlorate
HMDP nitroformiate
HMDP dinitroformiate
I suspect it has to do with the poor basicity induced by the nearby oxygen atoms (see electronic attraction for the sequence N->-CH2->->-O-) but maybe with a very strong acid...

Also
Teriary amines upon exposure to peroxydes do form N-oxydes
so why not...
--> hexametethylene diamine peroxide di-N-oxyde
O=N(CH2-O-O-CH2)3N=O
HMDP-di-N-oxydes --> HMDPDNO
or
-->hexametethylene diamine peroxide-N-oxyde
N(CH2-O-O-CH2)3N=O
HMDP-N-oxyde --> HMDPNO

And such N-oxydes of ternary amines also do form salts...
so maybe with a very strong acid
-->hexametethylene diamine peroxide-N-oxyde mono salts and di-salts
HMDPNO nitrate
HMDPNO dinitrate
HMDPNO perchlorate
HMDPNO diperchlorate
HMDPNO nitroformiate
HMDPNO dinitroformiate
and
--> hexametethylene diamine peroxide di-N-oxyde mono salts and di-salts
HMDPDNO nitrate
HMDPDNO dinitrate
HMDPDNO perchlorate
HMDPDNO diperchlorate
HMDPDNO nitroformiate
HMDPDNO dinitroformiate

But all this is for sure a wild dream ;)

I have already made a year ago a predictive density calculations for all of those molécules and if they existed, they would be very powerful HE...but probably way too sensitive for any practical use.

[Edited on 10-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 08:32


That's the thing I was worried about - the 999 out of 1000 very high explosives that are too sensitive for practical use (some tetrazoles in particular)

Anyway, thanks for your help.

EDIT:

Hexamethylene dinitrate DOES exist on the Dortmund Data Bank...

http://ddbonline.ddbst.com/DDBSearch/onlineddboverview.exe?s...


[Edited on 10-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]
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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 09:11


Although this wasn't the primary purpose of this thread, have you heard of the highly explosive hexanitroethane/boron mixtures? Archived by the UK explosives authorities:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070930200122/http://stinet.dti...
I assume that this would also work with hexanitroethane/nanomagnesium and
tetranitromethane/fuel... The oxygen balance looks very good.
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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 09:32


New energetics are always an interesting topic for sure!
People have nitrated (or tried) about everything. Even random starch and petrol. Results vary xD.

Nitrocellulose is a macro-molecule. Like a plastic, like PE.
It can be condensed to a plastic ball and detonated that way. However, NC can't be said to be a HE like RDX or TNT at all, it's much less brisant.

Polyethylene glycol (PEG). It's easily found as an OTC laxative (I had a bad week).
Researching the molecule I found it's nitrated form was used as a binder on a solid-fuel composition for the Trident II missile.
I wasn't able to find any more info on the properties of PEG.
EG however is a well-known liquid explosive, so PEG's synthesis shouldn't be much different.

I wonder what other macro-molecule energetics can be found. These could have very different, and interesting properties.
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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 10:33


Other macromolecule EMs could be very interesting...

From what I could guess, it would turn into polyethylene glycol dinitrate. Polyvinyl nitrate is also a thing, although there isn't much about it.

The problem is sensitivity.
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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 11:00


Other macromolecule EMs could be very interesting...

From what I could guess, it would turn into polyethylene glycol dinitrate. Polyvinyl nitrate is also a thing, although there isn't much about it.

The problem is sensitivity.
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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 11:04


Scientific Trigger Warning :) This synthesis has not been attempted and is PURELY THEORETICAL.

Synthesis of heptanitropentane:
My initial impressions are that 2-nitro 3-acetoxy 1-propene and nitroform would react to form heptanitropentane. OB looks about zero, although it is again highly sensitive.
I have access to a university laboratory, although I doubt that they would sanction a chemistry student to attempt to synthesise a very experimental extremely violent he...
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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 13:52


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
That's the thing I was worried about - the 999 out of 1000 very high explosives that are too sensitive for practical use (some tetrazoles in particular)

Anyway, thanks for your help.

EDIT:

Hexamethylene dinitrate DOES exist on the Dortmund Data Bank...

http://ddbonline.ddbst.com/DDBSearch/onlineddboverview.exe?s...


[Edited on 10-4-2016 by a nitrogen rich explosive]

Hexamethylene DIAMINE dinitrate is only:
O2NOH.H2N-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-CH2-NH2.HONO2
Normal it forms a disalt, the two amino groups are far enough not to interfere and those are primary alkyl amines thus quite basic.
This has nothing to do with HMTDP... :(:mad:




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[*] posted on 10-4-2016 at 14:33


:( Sorry, I haven't researched (or had any need) to do anything with hexamethylene, and I assumed that the diamine was there anyway...

Mistakes like that can cost lives.




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 02:46


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
Although this wasn't the primary purpose of this thread, have you heard of the highly explosive hexanitroethane/boron mixtures? Archived by the UK explosives authorities:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070930200122/http://stinet.dti...
I assume that this would also work with hexanitroethane/nanomagnesium and
tetranitromethane/fuel... The oxygen balance looks very good.

All those per-nitro-alcanes (all H replaced by NO2) / fuel mixes are powerful, brisant and sensitive HE...this is due to the easy lability of vicinal -NO2 and conversion into nitrite (-O-N=O) --> easy evolution of NO and NO2 with further exothermic reaction with the fuel --> runnaway and D2D transition.

If you can make a high energy fuel miscible with the per-nitro-alcane, then you would get a super-HE (very sensitive).
The idea of per-cyano-compounds has been proposed by Franklyn and I.

OB balanced binary mixes of TNM and HNE containing not a single H atom with tetracyanomethane, hexacyanoethane, hexacyanobenzene or tricyano-sym-triazene (cyanuric cyanide) for example should be quite interesting.




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 02:57


Quote: Originally posted by Aurium  

Polyethylene glycol (PEG). It's easily found as an OTC laxative (I had a bad week).
Researching the molecule I found it's nitrated form was used as a binder on a solid-fuel composition for the Trident II missile.
I wasn't able to find any more info on the properties of PEG.
EG however is a well-known liquid explosive, so PEG's synthesis shouldn't be much different.

PEG is a polymer of ethene-epoxyde...
n cyclo(*-CH2-CH2-O-*) --> (-CH2-CH2-O-)n
thus a long chain of -CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-O...
with groups at the end like HO-.
It is NOT explosive, even if you put a O2N-O at each of the two ends.
EG is NOTa well-known liquid explosive...you probably thought about EG dinitrate (EGDN)...

Please think twice and reread/do a critical relecture before/prior posting.




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 03:12


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  

Synthesis of heptanitropentane:
My initial impressions are that 2-nitro 3-acetoxy 1-propene and nitroform would react to form heptanitropentane. OB looks about zero, although it is again highly sensitive.
I have access to a university laboratory, although I doubt that they would sanction a chemistry student to attempt to synthesise a very experimental extremely violent he...

Let's look at you reaction...
2-nitro 3-acetoxy 1-propene would be CH3-CO-O-CH2-C(NO2)=CH2
So
CH3-CO-O-CH2-C(NO2)=CH2 + HC(NO2)3 --> CH3-CO-O-CH2-CH(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3
By virtue of the molecular conformation and EWG effects of both trinitromethyl and nitro, one may expect elimination of acetic acid (if it doesn't happen spontaneously, then first hydrolysis to the alcohol that will dehydrate) to make a new alcene...
2,4,4,4-tetranitro-1-butene
CH3-CO-O-CH2-CH(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3 --> CH2=C(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3 + CH3-CO2H
or
CH3-CO-O-CH2-CH(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3 + H2O --> HO-CH2-CH(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3 + CH3-CO2H
HO-CH2-CH(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3 --> CH2=C(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3

Then finally:
CH2=C(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3 + HC(NO2)3 -->(O2N)3C-CH2-CH(NO2)-CH2-C(NO2)3
1,1,1,3,5,5,5-heptanitropentane

Nice.
You can now do it and report scientific results here ;)




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 12:52


I'm interested in a few things, one rather tame. A panclastite of N2O and a solid or liquid fuel. I think it would be very insensitive and probably even wimpy, but I also think it would by nature be very dense if it used liquid Dinitrogen Oxide.

The other is the nitrate of REB A, which I'm not sure is possible or plausible. My very shitty napkin math said it could hold some absurd number of nitro groups in it's structure, but that would require that it be capable of surviving exposure to a strong acid in the first place, which I doubt somewhat. My napkin math said it could hold something like 24 nitro groups at a time, but I could be WAY off on that.




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[*] posted on 12-4-2016 at 15:35


Rebauside A would probably be able to react to form rebauside a 24-nitrate. From what I can tell, your napkin math is correct...



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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 03:19


@PHILOU Zrealone:

1) Would you expect that heptanitropentane be a highly flammable liquid, or a very high explosive?

2) Am I right in thinking that nitration of the pyridine salt of HNP would form octonitropentane?

Thanks in advance




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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 10:52


Quote: Originally posted by a nitrogen rich explosive  
@PHILOU Zrealone:

1) Would you expect that heptanitropentane be a highly flammable liquid, or a very high explosive?

2) Am I right in thinking that nitration of the pyridine salt of HNP would form octonitropentane?

Thanks in advance

1) a HE solid
2) depends if HNP is acid enough to form a pyridine salt and what nitration media...




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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 10:57


Quote: Originally posted by James Ikanov  
I'm interested in a few things, one rather tame. A panclastite of N2O and a solid or liquid fuel. I think it would be very insensitive and probably even wimpy, but I also think it would by nature be very dense if it used liquid Dinitrogen Oxide.

The other is the nitrate of REB A, which I'm not sure is possible or plausible. My very shitty napkin math said it could hold some absurd number of nitro groups in it's structure, but that would require that it be capable of surviving exposure to a strong acid in the first place, which I doubt somewhat. My napkin math said it could hold something like 24 nitro groups at a time, but I could be WAY off on that.

Reb A or Rebaudioside A (Stevia ose) count 14 free hydroxy groups, so you would be a chemical master if you can put 24 on it. Also there is a carboxylic ester in the structure so one of the cyclic ose might split off the molecule --> only 10 remaining in the biggest part of the molecule and 5 in the tiniest.




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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 10:58


Quote: Originally posted by James Ikanov  
I'm interested in a few things, one rather tame. A panclastite of N2O and a solid or liquid fuel. I think it would be very insensitive and probably even wimpy, but I also think it would by nature be very dense if it used liquid Dinitrogen Oxide.

N2O is endothermic and a provider of activated O, so the fuel will burn very hot. N2O/butane goes above 2200°C.




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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 11:24


I ran a quick calculation for a mixture of liquid N2O and nitrobenzene. Ratio 81.7% N2O to 18.3% C5H5NO2 and density 1.22 g/cm3.
DCJ: 6630 m/s
PCJ: 165 kbar
Energy of detonation: 5.57 MJ/kg

As a comparison, here is liquid NO with the same fuel:
Ratio 75.3/24.7, density 1.27 g/cm3.
DCJ: 7380 m/s
PCJ: 200 kbar
Energy of detonation: 7.78 MJ/kg
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[*] posted on 13-4-2016 at 11:26


Hey, if you have a lot of questions, no lab work to report and no references/links to sources?

Please use the "short question/ quick answer" thread!

I am going to collect all of these nitrogen rich threads that lack useful references/links or any lab report and merge them into this thread:

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=26...




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[*] posted on 14-4-2016 at 08:53


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
I ran a quick calculation for a mixture of liquid N2O and nitrobenzene. Ratio 81.7% N2O to 18.3% C5H5NO2 and density 1.22 g/cm3.
DCJ: 6630 m/s
PCJ: 165 kbar
Energy of detonation: 5.57 MJ/kg

As a comparison, here is liquid NO with the same fuel:
Ratio 75.3/24.7, density 1.27 g/cm3.
DCJ: 7380 m/s
PCJ: 200 kbar
Energy of detonation: 7.78 MJ/kg

Nice program/calculator you have there Dornier 335A,
Would be good to calculate also for NO2(g) and/or N2O4(l or s) thus for the real panclastite stuff.

[Edited on 14-4-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 15-4-2016 at 04:41


Alright, here is liquid N2O4 and nitrobenzene (70/30):
Density 1.36 g/cm3

DCJ: 7360 m/s
PCJ: 212 kbar
Energy of detonation: 7.10 MJ/kg
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[*] posted on 29-4-2016 at 09:14


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  

I ran a quick calculation for a mixture of liquid N2O and nitrobenzene. Ratio 81.7% N2O to 18.3% C5H5NO2 and density 1.22 g/cm3.
DCJ: 6630 m/s
PCJ: 165 kbar
Energy of detonation: 5.57 MJ/kg

As a comparison, here is liquid NO with the same fuel:
Ratio 75.3/24.7, density 1.27 g/cm3.
DCJ: 7380 m/s
PCJ: 200 kbar
Energy of detonation: 7.78 MJ/kg

Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  

Alright, here is liquid N2O4 and nitrobenzene (70/30):
Density 1.36 g/cm3

DCJ: 7360 m/s
PCJ: 212 kbar
Energy of detonation: 7.10 MJ/kg

Are you sure for this last? I would have thought it to be more powerful owing to an overal denser mix...

Here are some datas:
N2O
d(l) at -89°C = 1.23 g/cm³
H°f(g) = +82.05 kJ/mol
H°vap = +16.53 kJ/mol
--> H°f(l) = +98,58 kJ/mol

NO
d(l) at -151.8°C = 1.30 g/cm³
H°f(l) = +87.7 kJ/mol
H°vap = +13.83 kJ/mol
--> H°f(g) = +73,87 kJ/mol

N2O3
d(l) at 3.5°C = 1.447 g/cm³
H°f(g) = +91.2 kJ/mol

N2O4
d(l) at 20°C = 1.45 g/cm³
H°f(l) = +9.16 kJ/mol
H°vap = +38.12 kJ/mol
--> H°f(g) = -28.96 kJ/mol

NO2
H°f(g) = +34.0 kJ/mol
H°r (N2O4 --> 2 NO2) = +57.23 kJ/mol

N2O5
d(s) at 20°C = 1.642 g/cm³ (T°f=30°C)
H°f(s) = -43.1 kJ/mol
H°f(g) = +11.3 kJ/mol (must be wrong since H°vap and H°fusion or H°sublim are >0 and increasing with MW) so should be << -43.1...)




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[*] posted on 1-5-2016 at 00:28


Would be possible to bring liquid explosives to detonate by Sonoluminescence ?
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