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The WiZard is In
International Hazard
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Copper and aluminium sulphate
Calcium, potassium and magnesium chloride
Sodium tetraborate
Sodium silicate solution
Calcium hypochlorite - useful in making chloroform.
Which speak of — was discovered not far from the
current Schloss Zauberer [Hexenmeister] where in
The Bibliothek WiZardæ (the finest collection
of arcane publications and nudist magazines in the
free world) just off the grand ballroom I find shelved :—
Linda Stratmann
Chloroform : The Quest for Oblivion
Sutton Publishing 2003
Not strong on chemistry, but interesting.
What may be more interesting is what you can
no longer easily buy OTC —
Carbon tetrachloride
Trichlorethlene
1,1,1 Trichloroethane
Oxalic acid
Tri-sodium phosphate (TSP)
&c., &c.
[djh/
-------
Do you believe that the sciences would ever had
arisen and became great if there had not beforehand
been magicians, alchemists, astrologers and WiZards,
who thirsted and hungered after abscondite and
forbidden powers?
Friedrich Nietzsche
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft, IV, 1886
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bbartlog
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| Quote: | Oxalic acid
Tri-sodium phosphate (TSP) |
I was able to buy both of these at a hardware store about a year ago. I do sometimes wonder whether some of the chemicals I buy are old stock that
will not be replaced (I bought a gallon of sulfuric acid at an old hardware store that I strongly suspect will not be restocked) but the Na3PO4 and
oxalic acid appeared to be regular items of trade with multiple boxes/tubs on the shelf, not dusty or anything.
Dichloromethane is something I can't seem to find OTC in these parts... there is a five-gallon pail of some parts degreaser at the local auto parts
store that appears to be mostly DCM, but all the smaller containers of superficially similar solvents appear to be petroleum distillate based. And I
don't need nor want to pay for five gallons of solvent.
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grndpndr
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I recently noticed TSP at a hardware store some Distance away.
New I shoulda bought some but its a source of very good drain
cleaner (liquid fire) works well Ill be back but given the chance I buy batt. electrolyte $14 6 L 34%.Much cheaper and no additives.Local ACE
Is no longer the place! Close stores no longer stock the stuff that was useful. Gotta get creative and spend gas money.
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chief
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Has anyone a suggestion for finding toluene or benzene in germany, from hardware-stores ?
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hissingnoise
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Companies specialising in industrial paints/coatings should still carry toluene (toluol) but the last time I looked in my local hardware I could see
only xylene. . .
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gnitseretni
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Walmart carries a paint thinner that has a high percentage DCM in it, for those who are looking for it. This one http://www.wmbarr.com/product.aspx?catid=72&prodid=117
None of the hardware stores around here carry toluene anymore and xylene seems to be slowly disappearing as well.
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grndpndr
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i BELIEVE IVE SEEN TOLUENE RECENTLY BUT THATS THE EXCEPTION.
iF YOU INTEND TO GET SOME OF THESE DISSAPEARING SOLVENTS ETC
BETTER DO SO POST HASTE.ACETONE,TOLUENE ALMOST NONEXISTENT,MEKP'S GETTING THERE.UNFORTUNATELY THERS QUITE ALOT DISSAPEARING FASTER THAN i CAN BECOME
AWARE OR AFFORD.
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aonomus
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I have found that quite a few of the chemicals being removed from OTC sources but not restricted by law may be due to environmental issues.
Chlorinated compounds, DCM (paint stripper), perchloroethylene/tetrachloroethylene (dry cleaning) are less available due to health concerns, improper
disposal, and better options (such as CO2 based supercritical extractions). Trisodium phosphate was a concern as a phosphate source for eutrophication
of water bodies, such as Lake Erie which was totally eutrophic for a while but managed to turn around and become productive again.
Other chemicals are harder to find/get due to lack of popular demand, not everyone needs copper sulfate root killers anymore, with all the suburban
cookie cutter houses, few people actually have to deal with old-growth hardwood trees that work their way into old piping/sewer pipes.
On the bright side in Toronto, a local commercial plastics shop carries chemicals such as MEK, toluene, acetone, GAA, and DCM in usable amounts with
reasonable prices, straight from a local chemical supplier in metal tins with the original labeling.
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watson.fawkes
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Quote: Originally posted by aonomus  | | I have found that quite a few of the chemicals being removed from OTC sources but not restricted by law may be due to environmental issues. [...] On
the bright side in Toronto, a local commercial plastics shop carries chemicals such as MEK, toluene, acetone, GAA, and DCM in usable amounts with
reasonable prices, straight from a local chemical supplier in metal tins with the original labeling. |
I can
second this. As far as solvents go, the phasing-out of oil-based paints came about because of concerns about air pollution from VOC (volatile organic
compounds, i.e. solvents) concerns. There's less use of solvents now, and it's not economical to stock them at some point, so the item disappears off
the shelf.
I'll also second the point about industrial availability. Much of what's disappearing from ordinary retail (big box home store) is still available
from trade suppliers. For example, the BBHS's around here no longer stock toluene (they dropped it fairly recently), but it's still available at paint
suppliers and other suppliers to tradesmen.
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SWilkin676
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Ace Hardware still carries TSP. Some things you have to go out into the rural stores for.
Stores that sell epoxy supply still have pretty decent solvents.
I found this link on another forum - nice data for flammables.
Ignitable Liquids Database
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The WiZard is In
International Hazard
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------
Ignitable Liquids Database - No. Must be Obama Admin. at work
again. Search failed to find two of the most flammable liquids
that come to my mind — carbon disulphide and ether [ethyl/sulphuric].
For serious fun I reference : —
RDTR No. 144
Handbook of Selected Properties of Air-and Water-Reactive Materials.
U.S. Naval Ammunition Depot Crane, Indiana
March 1969
I own a library bound - what appears to be an NTIS copy. I would be
A- Astounded and B- Amazed if it couldn't be DL'd. It lacks an index.
Once again I would be A & B...
By da — page 145 is not totally readable in either versions.
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In | No. Must be Obama Admin. at work
again. Search failed to find two of the most flammable liquids
that come to my mind — carbon disulphide and ether [ethyl/sulphuric]. |
Given that it's a database of
consumer products, this is hardly surprising. It takes all of a minute to figure this out. Incidentally, "SRN" stands for "sample reference number",
which takes about another minute with Google to figure out.
I'll just chalk up arbitrary political defamation as another attribute of your activity here.
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The WiZard is In
International Hazard
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| Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes | Given that it's a database of consumer products, this is hardly surprising. It takes all of a minute to figure this out. Incidentally, "SRN" stands
for "sample reference number", which takes about another minute with Google to figure out.
I'll just chalk up arbitrary political defamation as another attribute of your activity here. |
Silly me. I would have though that a data base prepared by the
National Center for Forensic Science would be more complete.
Apparently they like O's admin. refusal to use the word terrorist —
are only concerned with amateur arsonists.
djh
----
You get a lot more co-operation with a
kind word and a gun — than with a kind
word alone.
Al Capone
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not_important
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From that site
| Quote: |
The Ignitable Liquids Reference Collection (ILRC) was developed by the ILRC Committee of the Technical Working Group for Fire and Explosives (TWGFEX).
This reference collection stems from the pioneering work of the Illinois State Police Crime Laboratory System under the leadership of Bruce
VanderKolk and Susan Johns, and the Pinellas County (Florida) Crime Laboratory under the direction of Reta Newman and Kevin Lothridge.
Committee Members
Sharee Wells (Committee Chair) Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences
Craig Bryant (Committee Chair) Centre of Forensic Sciences
Steve Allen National Center for Forensic Sciences - UCF
Mary Williams National Center for Forensic Sciences - UCF
Michael Sigman National Center for Forensic Sciences - UCF
Doug Byron FAST
Carol Clemmons US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory
Jess Dunn Iowa DCI Crime Laboratory
Sherrie Thomas Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms
Karen Fleisher Miami-Dade Police Department
Tracey Ray Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department
Ruth Henk Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory
Judi Hoffmann Montana Forensic Science Division
Copyright © 2006 University of Central Florida. All Rights Reserved.
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Someone seriously needs to get that time machine away from that dude, 1st was posting bogus birth announcements in the Honolulu papers, now it's
creating defective database before he was elected.
Might it possibly that nowadays hardware stores rarely stock CS2 or Et2O, and thus they are very rarely used in arson?
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The WiZard is In
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Which would be a good reason to use them... no one would look for them.
General JH Binford Peay, commander of the US Central Command, on the bombing in Saudi Arabia.
"You would not see this in the normal types of terrorism."
Professional soldiers are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs.
Murphy's Laws of Combat
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Formatik
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regarding CH2Cl2
The dichloromethane obtained by distilling hardware store paint stripper will typically contain methanol (sometimes other volatiles also). These two
form an azeotrope that boils at 37.8C and has 92.7% by mass dichloromethane, the rest methanol. I've distilled before such a paint stripper just
trying to distill out dichloromethane and the density of the distillate was measured, 1.26g/cc. This is also the density one estimates of the
azeotrope. H2O also forms a more minor azeotrope.
Methanol forms addition compounds with a number of salts. Like with CaCl2 it forms CaCl2.3 CH4O and CaCl2.4 CH4O (Ann. 19, 168; Z. a. Ch. 52, 15,
etc). (CuSO4)3.CuO.4 CH4O forms from cupric sulfate and a lot of methanol (C.r. 142, 1272), green needles, that decompose easy at 110 deg., and lose
methanol in moist air under decomposition. MgCl2 + 6CH4O are deliquescent crystals (J. pr. [2] 20, 376), etc. EtOH also forms similar addition
compounds.
This is apparently one way of removing the methanol. Several others have been talked about (UTFSE). I've been meaning to distill the CH2Cl2 with
CaCl2, then measure the density of the distillate, but haven't got the time right now.
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quicksilver
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A very quick little note about tri-sodium phosphate (TSP): a Bill has past some moths back and 14 Sates in the USA have banned TSP from use in
DISH WASHING DETERGENTS. This now pretty much voids all soaps and detergents from the addition of phosphates. The run on the sale of TSP has been
mentioned in the local news. It seems that certain dishwashers demand tri-sodium phosphate due to highly calcified water which when run through small
outlet jets: clog. Dishwasher service calls are becoming overwhelming and the standard method of oxalic acid flushes using a commercially sold item
run into a $7 washed set of dishes. Result is a run on industrial TSP, which in-turn is getting environmental types screamingly angry.
News-radio item was owner of store stating tri-sodium phosphate (TSP) will no longer be sold.
Those who had predicted that certain OTC chemicals will be lost are apparently correct; especially if they have an environmental impact that has
either sudden or observable repercussions.
The other issue is ammonium nitrate. I live in a rural state (for the most part) and we were able to obtain ammonium nitrate via truck. The bagged
ammonium nitrate was stopped via agreement with fertilizer manufacturers on a quasi-casual basis. But delivery via commercial truck was acceptable
with certain provisos. This is no longer the case. The "Be Aware For America" campaign (Google it, if interested) is no longer considered effective
and through commercial agreement with a Norwegian firm pure ammonium nitrate will no longer be sold in the USA. Bagged and truck-level Calcium nitrate
mixed with ammonium nitrate will only be available if it meets specific elements. Norwegian firm YARA has captured bagged market. Large scale farming
will now have to "register" to obtain ammonium nitrate. Thus since really only acidic soil tobacco farmers REALLY need it; the commercial sales are
pretty mush lost. Nitrate/nitric acid chemical companies which produce fertilizers are now selling off those structures with "prill towers", pretty
much nation wide. The "big boys" (DuPont, etc) are now basically going to own the small market for US made ammonium nitrate. Basically, it's gone.
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k2976
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DCM is available as spray gun cleaner also. Needs to be fractionally distilled before using.
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Magpie
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Have you read the label on Ace's "TSP?" It may not actually contain any. I had to go to a paint store to get real TSP.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Thread Split
18-12-2010 at 13:59 |
cnidocyte
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I wonder how well activated carbon can be used to clean hardware store chems. I tested it out on this purple coloured methylated spirit product I
found and it removed the purple colourant so I'd assume it would have removed other crap is present in trace amounts.
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franklyn
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Trisodium Phosphate
Not as cheap as the supermarket dishwashing products but it is 100 %
http://www.nationalchemicals.com/store/template/product_deta...
http://www.nationalchemicals.com/store/template/product_deta...
.
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grndpndr
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IIRC ACE's TSP is/was Savogran Brand TSP 75-80% TSP/20-25% Na sesquicebicate.1/2lb boxes.
Also @ ACE
Savogran oxalic acid IS 100%
Rooto Lye is also 100%
Ace discontinued 4lb boxes Bonide Nitrate of Soda 15-0-0 Fert. Good to go most uses.OTOH, 'Hi Yield' brand Nitrate of Soda 16-0-0(4lb sacks) is full
of clay etc MUST be purified to yield decent NaNO3.
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Formatik
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Follow up comment on my note above. Has anyone gotten demethanolization of DCM to work, and verified by density? I have mixed the DCM azeotrope with
methanol with a lot of CaCl2 pellets, mixed it, let it stand for some time. Then after distillation the density was the exact same as the azeotrope.
On a separate note, I'm going to warn against using drain cleaner sulfuric acid in any kind of synthesis. I have used a drain cleaner in an attempt to
make dimethyl sulfide. The drain cleaner had an odor to it, but it looked like technical grade brown acid. Sulfuric acid should always be odorless! I
suspect this acid may have formed an unknown highly potent lung poison which potentially almost put me out for good, a few indirect whiffs of this
impurity was enough to cause severe respiratory effects.
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Magpie
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http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9270#p...
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by Formatik | | On a separate note, I'm going to warn against using drain cleaner sulfuric acid in any kind of synthesis. I have used a drain cleaner in an attempt to
make dimethyl sulfide. The drain cleaner had an odor to it, but it looked like technical grade brown acid. Sulfuric acid should always be odorless! I
suspect this acid may have formed an unknown highly potent lung poison which potentially almost put me out for good, a few indirect whiffs of this
impurity was enough to cause severe respiratory effects. |
Might it be a little rash to recommend against
using any drain cleaner sulfuric for any synthesis based on your experience with one drain cleaner in one
synthesis?
Perhaps better advice would be not to use what you described as "cheap" drain cleaner with a foul odor.
From your thread it is far from clear that the sulfuric was the cause of your reported symptoms.
In this video, Robert Thompson shows a bottle of Rooto that is crystal clear and titrates to 18 molar. Rooto is typically an excellent source of sulfuric
for the home chemist and you have not presented any evidence to the contrary.
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