Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3  
Author: Subject: Hardware store chemicals - questions
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-4-2010 at 10:42


Quote: Originally posted by freddurgan  
I went to my local hardware store and was pleased to find very accessible and useful chemicals.

I can get:

Thanks!


Copper and aluminium sulphate
Calcium, potassium and magnesium chloride
Sodium tetraborate
Sodium silicate solution

Calcium hypochlorite - useful in making chloroform.
Which speak of — was discovered not far from the
current Schloss Zauberer [Hexenmeister] where in
The Bibliothek WiZardæ (the finest collection
of arcane publications and nudist magazines in the
free world) just off the grand ballroom I find shelved :—

Linda Stratmann
Chloroform : The Quest for Oblivion
Sutton Publishing 2003

Not strong on chemistry, but interesting.

What may be more interesting is what you can
no longer easily buy OTC —

Carbon tetrachloride
Trichlorethlene
1,1,1 Trichloroethane
Oxalic acid
Tri-sodium phosphate (TSP)
&c., &c.


[djh/
-------
Do you believe that the sciences would ever had
arisen and became great if there had not beforehand
been magicians, alchemists, astrologers and WiZards,
who thirsted and hungered after abscondite and
forbidden powers?


Friedrich Nietzsche
Die fröhliche Wissenschaft, IV, 1886
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bbartlog
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1139
Registered: 27-8-2009
Location: Unmoored in time
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 19-4-2010 at 12:09


Quote:
Oxalic acid
Tri-sodium phosphate (TSP)


I was able to buy both of these at a hardware store about a year ago. I do sometimes wonder whether some of the chemicals I buy are old stock that will not be replaced (I bought a gallon of sulfuric acid at an old hardware store that I strongly suspect will not be restocked) but the Na3PO4 and oxalic acid appeared to be regular items of trade with multiple boxes/tubs on the shelf, not dusty or anything.
Dichloromethane is something I can't seem to find OTC in these parts... there is a five-gallon pail of some parts degreaser at the local auto parts store that appears to be mostly DCM, but all the smaller containers of superficially similar solvents appear to be petroleum distillate based. And I don't need nor want to pay for five gallons of solvent.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
grndpndr
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 22-4-2010 at 21:07


I recently noticed TSP at a hardware store some Distance away.
New I shoulda bought some but its a source of very good drain
cleaner (liquid fire) works well Ill be back but given the chance I buy batt. electrolyte $14 6 L 34%.Much cheaper and no additives.Local ACE
Is no longer the place! Close stores no longer stock the stuff that was useful. Gotta get creative and spend gas money.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
chief
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 630
Registered: 19-7-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 23-4-2010 at 05:15


Has anyone a suggestion for finding toluene or benzene in germany, from hardware-stores ?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
hissingnoise
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3919
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: Pulverulescent!

[*] posted on 23-4-2010 at 05:32


Companies specialising in industrial paints/coatings should still carry toluene (toluol) but the last time I looked in my local hardware I could see only xylene. . .

View user's profile View All Posts By User
gnitseretni
National Hazard
****




Posts: 280
Registered: 5-1-2007
Location: Houston
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 23-4-2010 at 08:55


Walmart carries a paint thinner that has a high percentage DCM in it, for those who are looking for it. This one http://www.wmbarr.com/product.aspx?catid=72&prodid=117

None of the hardware stores around here carry toluene anymore and xylene seems to be slowly disappearing as well.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
grndpndr
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 23-4-2010 at 19:23


i BELIEVE IVE SEEN TOLUENE RECENTLY BUT THATS THE EXCEPTION.
iF YOU INTEND TO GET SOME OF THESE DISSAPEARING SOLVENTS ETC
BETTER DO SO POST HASTE.ACETONE,TOLUENE ALMOST NONEXISTENT,MEKP'S GETTING THERE.UNFORTUNATELY THERS QUITE ALOT DISSAPEARING FASTER THAN i CAN BECOME AWARE OR AFFORD.:(
View user's profile View All Posts By User
aonomus
National Hazard
****




Posts: 361
Registered: 18-10-2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Refluxing

[*] posted on 25-4-2010 at 21:28


I have found that quite a few of the chemicals being removed from OTC sources but not restricted by law may be due to environmental issues. Chlorinated compounds, DCM (paint stripper), perchloroethylene/tetrachloroethylene (dry cleaning) are less available due to health concerns, improper disposal, and better options (such as CO2 based supercritical extractions). Trisodium phosphate was a concern as a phosphate source for eutrophication of water bodies, such as Lake Erie which was totally eutrophic for a while but managed to turn around and become productive again.

Other chemicals are harder to find/get due to lack of popular demand, not everyone needs copper sulfate root killers anymore, with all the suburban cookie cutter houses, few people actually have to deal with old-growth hardwood trees that work their way into old piping/sewer pipes.

On the bright side in Toronto, a local commercial plastics shop carries chemicals such as MEK, toluene, acetone, GAA, and DCM in usable amounts with reasonable prices, straight from a local chemical supplier in metal tins with the original labeling.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
watson.fawkes
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2793
Registered: 16-8-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 27-4-2010 at 05:27


Quote: Originally posted by aonomus  
I have found that quite a few of the chemicals being removed from OTC sources but not restricted by law may be due to environmental issues. [...] On the bright side in Toronto, a local commercial plastics shop carries chemicals such as MEK, toluene, acetone, GAA, and DCM in usable amounts with reasonable prices, straight from a local chemical supplier in metal tins with the original labeling.
I can second this. As far as solvents go, the phasing-out of oil-based paints came about because of concerns about air pollution from VOC (volatile organic compounds, i.e. solvents) concerns. There's less use of solvents now, and it's not economical to stock them at some point, so the item disappears off the shelf.

I'll also second the point about industrial availability. Much of what's disappearing from ordinary retail (big box home store) is still available from trade suppliers. For example, the BBHS's around here no longer stock toluene (they dropped it fairly recently), but it's still available at paint suppliers and other suppliers to tradesmen.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
SWilkin676
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 68
Registered: 3-2-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-5-2010 at 11:00


Ace Hardware still carries TSP. Some things you have to go out into the rural stores for.

Stores that sell epoxy supply still have pretty decent solvents.

I found this link on another forum - nice data for flammables.
Ignitable Liquids Database
View user's profile View All Posts By User
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-5-2010 at 13:54


Quote: Originally posted by SWilkin676  

I found this link on another forum - nice data for flammables.
Ignitable Liquids Database


------
Ignitable Liquids Database - No. Must be Obama Admin. at work
again. Search failed to find two of the most flammable liquids
that come to my mind — carbon disulphide and ether [ethyl/sulphuric].

For serious fun I reference : —

RDTR No. 144
Handbook of Selected Properties of Air-and Water-Reactive Materials.
U.S. Naval Ammunition Depot Crane, Indiana
March 1969

I own a library bound - what appears to be an NTIS copy. I would be
A- Astounded and B- Amazed if it couldn't be DL'd. It lacks an index.
Once again I would be A & B...

By da — page 145 is not totally readable in either versions.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
watson.fawkes
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2793
Registered: 16-8-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-5-2010 at 14:59


Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
No. Must be Obama Admin. at work
again. Search failed to find two of the most flammable liquids
that come to my mind — carbon disulphide and ether [ethyl/sulphuric].
Given that it's a database of consumer products, this is hardly surprising. It takes all of a minute to figure this out. Incidentally, "SRN" stands for "sample reference number", which takes about another minute with Google to figure out.

I'll just chalk up arbitrary political defamation as another attribute of your activity here.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-5-2010 at 16:28


Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
Given that it's a database of consumer products, this is hardly surprising. It takes all of a minute to figure this out. Incidentally, "SRN" stands for "sample reference number", which takes about another minute with Google to figure out.

I'll just chalk up arbitrary political defamation as another attribute of your activity here.



Silly me. I would have though that a data base prepared by the
National Center for Forensic Science would be more complete.
Apparently they like O's admin. refusal to use the word terrorist
are only concerned with amateur arsonists.


djh
----
You get a lot more co-operation with a
kind word and a gun — than with a kind
word alone.

Al Capone
View user's profile View All Posts By User
not_important
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-5-2010 at 17:44


Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

Ignitable Liquids Database - No. Must be Obama Admin. at work
again.


From that site
Quote:

The Ignitable Liquids Reference Collection (ILRC) was developed by the ILRC Committee of the Technical Working Group for Fire and Explosives (TWGFEX). This reference collection stems from the pioneering work of the Illinois State Police Crime Laboratory System under the leadership of Bruce VanderKolk and Susan Johns, and the Pinellas County (Florida) Crime Laboratory under the direction of Reta Newman and Kevin Lothridge.


Committee Members


Sharee Wells (Committee Chair) Alabama Department of Forensic Sciences

Craig Bryant (Committee Chair) Centre of Forensic Sciences

Steve Allen National Center for Forensic Sciences - UCF

Mary Williams National Center for Forensic Sciences - UCF

Michael Sigman National Center for Forensic Sciences - UCF

Doug Byron FAST

Carol Clemmons US Army Criminal Investigation Laboratory

Jess Dunn Iowa DCI Crime Laboratory

Sherrie Thomas Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms

Karen Fleisher Miami-Dade Police Department

Tracey Ray Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department

Ruth Henk Wisconsin State Crime Laboratory

Judi Hoffmann Montana Forensic Science Division

Copyright © 2006 University of Central Florida. All Rights Reserved.


Someone seriously needs to get that time machine away from that dude, 1st was posting bogus birth announcements in the Honolulu papers, now it's creating defective database before he was elected.

Might it possibly that nowadays hardware stores rarely stock CS2 or Et2O, and thus they are very rarely used in arson?






View user's profile View All Posts By User
The WiZard is In
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1617
Registered: 3-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 10-5-2010 at 18:48


Quote: Originally posted by not_important  

Might it possibly that nowadays hardware stores rarely stock CS2 or Et2O, and thus they are very rarely used in arson?



Which would be a good reason to use them... no one would look for them.


General JH Binford Peay, commander of the US Central Command, on the bombing in Saudi Arabia.

"You would not see this in the normal types of terrorism."

Professional soldiers are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs.
Murphy's Laws of Combat

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 29-6-2010 at 20:17
regarding CH2Cl2


The dichloromethane obtained by distilling hardware store paint stripper will typically contain methanol (sometimes other volatiles also). These two form an azeotrope that boils at 37.8C and has 92.7% by mass dichloromethane, the rest methanol. I've distilled before such a paint stripper just trying to distill out dichloromethane and the density of the distillate was measured, 1.26g/cc. This is also the density one estimates of the azeotrope. H2O also forms a more minor azeotrope.

Methanol forms addition compounds with a number of salts. Like with CaCl2 it forms CaCl2.3 CH4O and CaCl2.4 CH4O (Ann. 19, 168; Z. a. Ch. 52, 15, etc). (CuSO4)3.CuO.4 CH4O forms from cupric sulfate and a lot of methanol (C.r. 142, 1272), green needles, that decompose easy at 110 deg., and lose methanol in moist air under decomposition. MgCl2 + 6CH4O are deliquescent crystals (J. pr. [2] 20, 376), etc. EtOH also forms similar addition compounds.

This is apparently one way of removing the methanol. Several others have been talked about (UTFSE). I've been meaning to distill the CH2Cl2 with CaCl2, then measure the density of the distillate, but haven't got the time right now.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
quicksilver
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline

Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~

[*] posted on 16-12-2010 at 10:08


A very quick little note about tri-sodium phosphate (TSP): a Bill has past some moths back and 14 Sates in the USA have banned TSP from use in
DISH WASHING DETERGENTS. This now pretty much voids all soaps and detergents from the addition of phosphates. The run on the sale of TSP has been mentioned in the local news. It seems that certain dishwashers demand tri-sodium phosphate due to highly calcified water which when run through small outlet jets: clog. Dishwasher service calls are becoming overwhelming and the standard method of oxalic acid flushes using a commercially sold item run into a $7 washed set of dishes. Result is a run on industrial TSP, which in-turn is getting environmental types screamingly angry.
News-radio item was owner of store stating tri-sodium phosphate (TSP) will no longer be sold.

Those who had predicted that certain OTC chemicals will be lost are apparently correct; especially if they have an environmental impact that has either sudden or observable repercussions.

The other issue is ammonium nitrate. I live in a rural state (for the most part) and we were able to obtain ammonium nitrate via truck. The bagged ammonium nitrate was stopped via agreement with fertilizer manufacturers on a quasi-casual basis. But delivery via commercial truck was acceptable with certain provisos. This is no longer the case. The "Be Aware For America" campaign (Google it, if interested) is no longer considered effective and through commercial agreement with a Norwegian firm pure ammonium nitrate will no longer be sold in the USA. Bagged and truck-level Calcium nitrate mixed with ammonium nitrate will only be available if it meets specific elements. Norwegian firm YARA has captured bagged market. Large scale farming will now have to "register" to obtain ammonium nitrate. Thus since really only acidic soil tobacco farmers REALLY need it; the commercial sales are pretty mush lost. Nitrate/nitric acid chemical companies which produce fertilizers are now selling off those structures with "prill towers", pretty much nation wide. The "big boys" (DuPont, etc) are now basically going to own the small market for US made ammonium nitrate. Basically, it's gone.




View user's profile View All Posts By User
k2976
Harmless
*




Posts: 19
Registered: 16-12-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-12-2010 at 12:29


DCM is available as spray gun cleaner also. Needs to be fractionally distilled before using.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5935
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

[*] posted on 16-12-2010 at 14:23


Quote: Originally posted by SWilkin676  
Ace Hardware still carries TSP.


Have you read the label on Ace's "TSP?" It may not actually contain any. I had to go to a paint store to get real TSP.




The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Polverone
Now celebrating 15 years of madness
Thread Split
18-12-2010 at 13:59
cnidocyte
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 214
Registered: 7-7-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 18-12-2010 at 23:57


I wonder how well activated carbon can be used to clean hardware store chems. I tested it out on this purple coloured methylated spirit product I found and it removed the purple colourant so I'd assume it would have removed other crap is present in trace amounts.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
franklyn
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2992
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-2-2011 at 20:17
Trisodium Phosphate


Not as cheap as the supermarket dishwashing products but it is 100 %

http://www.nationalchemicals.com/store/template/product_deta...
http://www.nationalchemicals.com/store/template/product_deta...

.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
grndpndr
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 3-2-2011 at 14:46



IIRC ACE's TSP is/was Savogran Brand TSP 75-80% TSP/20-25% Na sesquicebicate.1/2lb boxes.
Also @ ACE

Savogran oxalic acid IS 100%


Rooto Lye is also 100%


Ace discontinued 4lb boxes Bonide Nitrate of Soda 15-0-0 Fert. Good to go most uses.OTOH, 'Hi Yield' brand Nitrate of Soda 16-0-0(4lb sacks) is full of clay etc MUST be purified to yield decent NaNO3.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 4-2-2011 at 12:19


Follow up comment on my note above. Has anyone gotten demethanolization of DCM to work, and verified by density? I have mixed the DCM azeotrope with methanol with a lot of CaCl2 pellets, mixed it, let it stand for some time. Then after distillation the density was the exact same as the azeotrope.

On a separate note, I'm going to warn against using drain cleaner sulfuric acid in any kind of synthesis. I have used a drain cleaner in an attempt to make dimethyl sulfide. The drain cleaner had an odor to it, but it looked like technical grade brown acid. Sulfuric acid should always be odorless! I suspect this acid may have formed an unknown highly potent lung poison which potentially almost put me out for good, a few indirect whiffs of this impurity was enough to cause severe respiratory effects.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Magpie
lab constructor
*****




Posts: 5935
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.

[*] posted on 4-2-2011 at 13:15


Quote: Originally posted by Formatik  
Has anyone gotten demethanolization of DCM to work, and verified by density?


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9270#p...




The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
View user's profile View All Posts By User
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
*****




Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline

Mood: Fissile

[*] posted on 4-2-2011 at 17:11


Quote: Originally posted by Formatik  
On a separate note, I'm going to warn against using drain cleaner sulfuric acid in any kind of synthesis. I have used a drain cleaner in an attempt to make dimethyl sulfide. The drain cleaner had an odor to it, but it looked like technical grade brown acid. Sulfuric acid should always be odorless! I suspect this acid may have formed an unknown highly potent lung poison which potentially almost put me out for good, a few indirect whiffs of this impurity was enough to cause severe respiratory effects.
Might it be a little rash to recommend against using any drain cleaner sulfuric for any synthesis based on your experience with one drain cleaner in one synthesis?

Perhaps better advice would be not to use what you described as "cheap" drain cleaner with a foul odor.

From your thread it is far from clear that the sulfuric was the cause of your reported symptoms.

In this video, Robert Thompson shows a bottle of Rooto that is crystal clear and titrates to 18 molar. Rooto is typically an excellent source of sulfuric for the home chemist and you have not presented any evidence to the contrary.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3  

  Go To Top