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Author: Subject: Hydronium H9O4??!!
sbreheny
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[*] posted on 8-8-2016 at 20:06
Hydronium H9O4??!!


Hi all,

I came across a product called "Non-Corrosive Acid":

http://www.blueeagleclean.com/product/non-corrosive-acid-c/

which claims to contain "Stabilized Hydronium (H9O4)". The only hydronium I've ever heard of is H3O+ which only occurs in aqueous solution.

The MSDS lists Hydronium as one of the ingredients, with a CAS number of 13986-08-6.

Any idea what this stuff is? Is it a load of BS?

In searching for information on this, I also came across a discussion of Carborane Acids:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carborane_acid
where it is claimed that they can protonate almost anything but yet have a conjugate base which is fairly non-reactive so they have "acidity without ferocity". Is this true? Wouldn't it be a problem if it protonated the proteins in your skin?!

Thanks,

Sean
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[*] posted on 8-8-2016 at 21:11


No cites but a quick answer.

I recall reading that water molecules form chains of on average 10 molecules. There are strong hydrogen bonds and they do not move independently from one another. So a formula H2O is something of a simplification of the actual situation. (A useful one too I might add.)

In the same way H3O+ is probably a simplification. Add another three neighbouring water molecules that are influenced by it and you have H9O4+ (Similarly in a recent discussion on 100% H2SO4 it is mentioned that there are a variety of different species present in equilibrium in a solution of sulfuric acid or oleum.)

In the context that you are reading it, it is probably an effort to use science to baffle rather than to illuminate. But I see no reason why an H9O4+ species couldn't be a reasonable description of something that occurs in water.


Not directly related but interesting nonetheless:
https://actu.epfl.ch/news/a-single-ion-impacts-a-million-wat...




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nezza
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[*] posted on 8-8-2016 at 22:59


It sounds like marketing bollox. H9O4 as a hydrated hydronium ion would have a net positive charge and need a conjugate base. I suspect the "active" ingredient will be some weak organic acid like citric or similar. The "MSDS" does not list any real ingredients so is also cobblers. The whole think sounds like a shampoo advert trying so make hair soap sound glamorous.



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Fulmen
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[*] posted on 9-8-2016 at 00:52


I agree. I tried looking up the CAS number (13986-08-6), couldn't find anything there either.



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brubei
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[*] posted on 9-8-2016 at 03:37


see Zundel and Eigen cation

Hydronium ion: H3O+
Zundel cation: H5O2+ (named for Georg Zundel)
Eigen cation: H9O4+ (named for Manfred Eigen)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_ion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotthuss_mechanism
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ficolas
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[*] posted on 9-8-2016 at 03:52


It would be hilarious if they were selling just plain water. It has a concentration of 10^-7 H3O2, so it has hydronium, and its pretty stable, so they add stabiliced.
They say it has a pH of 0, and it doesnt seem that much of a swindle
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[*] posted on 9-8-2016 at 03:56


Quote: Originally posted by sbreheny  
[...]The only hydronium I've ever heard of is H3O+ which only occurs in aqueous solution. [...]

Interestingly, this ion also exists in crystalline solids. The most common one is the salt hydronium perchlorate, [H3O]ClO4, which consists of H3O(+) ions and ClO4(-) ions. This salt is fairly stable and can be handled safely. It is much more stable than anhydrous perchloric acid.
This salt can be made from anhydrous perchloric acid and water.
It also is interesting to see that this compound is a solid (a salt, somewhat similar to ammonium perchlorate), while both anhydrous HClO4 (which is a covalent molecule) and more dilute HClO4 (e.g. 70% HClO4, which is fully ionized in aqueous solution) are liquids.
There are more solid hydronium salts, another one is [H3O][SbF6].




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[*] posted on 9-8-2016 at 05:02


Interesting anecdote: I found out about hydronium perchlorate when I was vacuum distilling perchloric acid from sodium perchlorate and sulfuric acid, and a mysterious white solid started clogging my condenser. I thought I had added enough water to the sulfuric acid to make the distilled acid azeotropic, but apparently I added somewhat less than I should have, and got hydronium perchlorate depositing in the condenser.



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sbreheny
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[*] posted on 9-8-2016 at 18:02


Thanks to everyone for their answers. What about the second part of my question - has anyone heard of carborane acid and knows whether it is true that it can protonate almost anything but will not hurt your hand?
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[*] posted on 9-8-2016 at 22:49


The story about this acid is true to some extent. There are so-called super acids HX, which extremely easily lose a proton to form X(-) anions. For some super-acids, the anion X(-) is very stable and unreactive. If a small quantity of such an acid comes in contact with skin then the water in/on the skin is protonated, while the other molecules in the skin are not affected. If more of this acid comes in contact with skin, then the other molecules can get protonated and damage can be done.

There are acids, which are so strongly acidic, that they can even protonate alkanes, or protonate benzene (C6H6) to C6H7(+). If such an acid is added to water, however, then the resulting solution is less corrosive than a solution of e.g. HCl of the same molarity. This is because the acid fully dissociates in water to form H3O(+) and higher hydrates of that and a totally benign anion.

HClO4 can be regarded as an example of this group of acid, albeit one of the weakest ones. When added to water, HClO4 completely ionizes to H3O(+) and ClO4(-). The ClO4(-) ion is very inert in aqueous solution (even more so than the unreactive sulfate ion) and such solutions only show acid behavior, no oxidizing behavior, nor coordinating/complexing behavior.

Carborane acids are a class of acids, based on some hydroboron-hydrocarbon compound, with optionally one or more of the hydrogen atoms substituted by something else like F or Cl. I do not know the details, however. Some of these acids can protonate benzene and even form stable salts with it, with the C6H7(+) cation in their crystal lattice.




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[*] posted on 10-8-2016 at 10:00


Quote: Originally posted by sbreheny  
Thanks to everyone for their answers. What about the second part of my question - has anyone heard of carborane acid and knows whether it is true that it can protonate almost anything but will not hurt your hand?


Much more on carborane acids, here:

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=62973&...

Also some info on the higher oxonium ions:

$$\mathrm{ H_5O_2^+},\:\mathrm{ H_7O_3^+},\:\mathrm{ H_9O_4^+} ...$$


[Edited on 10-8-2016 by blogfast25]




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Whichrabbitholeisthis
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[*] posted on 28-11-2017 at 21:19
Hydronium & Bannix for pets


I found your page from over a year ago when you were discussing H30, which is hydronium, I gather. I googled hydronium and found your site, the ingredient in a product, Bannix that is supposed to quickly heal all wounds pet (and some farm animals). I have read your posts, but I am too unschooled in chemistry to figure out the answer to the simple question, what is hydronium exactly and can I make it or come close (do chemists hate that idea?) from something around the house. Is it altered water? I just need to help this cat with a hole on top of a lump on its back that is bloody and has a bad odor. I tried some mild salt water to clean it and it didn't bother him too much and now it smells better. But it is a bigger hole than one he had before that I thought was from a BB gun, so I thought I better be ready to use something else. I had just two cats. My son left me with two of his and never came for them. One of his had five kittens; found homes for three. One of mine died from cancer. The mama cat disappeared. Lol this sounds like an elementary math story problem. How many cats do I have now? Four. I am responsible for four cats and it is overwhelming on a fixed income, so I avoid trips to the vet if I can use my own remedies successfully. (A local coalition for cats helped with spaying and nuetering, thank goodness.) Anyway, I am sure you're now wishing you had stricter requirements for posting! Any information, help or ideas are greatly appreciated.
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[*] posted on 28-11-2017 at 22:07


Quote: Originally posted by Whichrabbitholeisthis  
I found your page from over a year ago when you were discussing H30, which is hydronium, I gather. I googled hydronium and found your site, the ingredient in a product, Bannix that is supposed to quickly heal all wounds pet (and some farm animals). I have read your posts, but I am too unschooled in chemistry to figure out the answer to the simple question, what is hydronium exactly and can I make it or come close (do chemists hate that idea?) from something around the house. Is it altered water? I just need to help this cat with a hole on top of a lump on its back that is bloody and has a bad odor. I tried some mild salt water to clean it and it didn't bother him too much and now it smells better. But it is a bigger hole than one he had before that I thought was from a BB gun, so I thought I better be ready to use something else. I had just two cats. My son left me with two of his and never came for them. One of his had five kittens; found homes for three. One of mine died from cancer. The mama cat disappeared. Lol this sounds like an elementary math story problem. How many cats do I have now? Four. I am responsible for four cats and it is overwhelming on a fixed income, so I avoid trips to the vet if I can use my own remedies successfully. (A local coalition for cats helped with spaying and nuetering, thank goodness.) Anyway, I am sure you're now wishing you had stricter requirements for posting! Any information, help or ideas are greatly appreciated.


Their website clais it contains "stabilized hydronium", which would mean it's aqueous acid of some low concentration (they say it's no more irritating than deionized water), so I suspect it's barely more than water. Scam alert.




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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 02:36


The MDS states it’s a water solution of 50% hydromium. Wow with no counter ion that would require a very very well electrically insulated and super strong bottle. A one litre bottle would have a potential of about 10^19 volts (from a quick calculation). Opening the bottle would cause a seriously large explosion equivalent to several meg tons of TNT. Just one drop of the stuff could power my car for a very very long time. It would make great rocket fuel too.

Yes total BS. I wonder how many bottles of it they have sold and why has California not shut them down.
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29-11-2017 at 05:49
clearly_not_atara
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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 18:44


I tried to look at the Blue Eagle product page for this claim, but both the link in this thread and the one available in the drop-down menu on Blue Eagle's webpage ("Non-Corrosive Acid" under "Products") take me to a "Not Found" page. Is it safe to say this is done with?



[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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wg48
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[*] posted on 30-11-2017 at 02:32


Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
I tried to look at the Blue Eagle product page for this claim, but both the link in this thread and the one available in the drop-down menu on Blue Eagle's webpage ("Non-Corrosive Acid" under "Products") take me to a "Not Found" page. Is it safe to say this is done with?


The MDS is still up see: http://www.blueeagleclean.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SDS...

and from a different company https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=...

Perhaps its a way of hiding its just a HCl solution but don't they get in trouble for a false MDS.

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