Not logged in [Login - Register]
 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Beginnings » Hydronium H9O4??!! Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication   » References Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Whimsy   » Detritus   » The Moderators' Lounge

Author: Subject: Hydronium H9O4??!!
sbreheny
Hazard to Others

Posts: 108
Registered: 30-1-2014
Member Is Offline

Hydronium H9O4??!!

Hi all,

I came across a product called "Non-Corrosive Acid":

http://www.blueeagleclean.com/product/non-corrosive-acid-c/

which claims to contain "Stabilized Hydronium (H9O4)". The only hydronium I've ever heard of is H3O+ which only occurs in aqueous solution.

The MSDS lists Hydronium as one of the ingredients, with a CAS number of 13986-08-6.

Any idea what this stuff is? Is it a load of BS?

In searching for information on this, I also came across a discussion of Carborane Acids:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carborane_acid
where it is claimed that they can protonate almost anything but yet have a conjugate base which is fairly non-reactive so they have "acidity without ferocity". Is this true? Wouldn't it be a problem if it protonated the proteins in your skin?!

Thanks,

Sean
j_sum1
International Hazard

Posts: 3392
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: Oz
Member Is Offline

Mood: Undergoing decantation and leaving all the crap behind.

No cites but a quick answer.

I recall reading that water molecules form chains of on average 10 molecules. There are strong hydrogen bonds and they do not move independently from one another. So a formula H2O is something of a simplification of the actual situation. (A useful one too I might add.)

In the same way H3O+ is probably a simplification. Add another three neighbouring water molecules that are influenced by it and you have H9O4+ (Similarly in a recent discussion on 100% H2SO4 it is mentioned that there are a variety of different species present in equilibrium in a solution of sulfuric acid or oleum.)

In the context that you are reading it, it is probably an effort to use science to baffle rather than to illuminate. But I see no reason why an H9O4+ species couldn't be a reasonable description of something that occurs in water.

Not directly related but interesting nonetheless:
https://actu.epfl.ch/news/a-single-ion-impacts-a-million-wat...

A little shameless self-promotion: You are welcome to tour my newly-completed lab.
nezza
National Hazard

Posts: 266
Registered: 17-4-2011
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: phosphorescent

It sounds like marketing bollox. H9O4 as a hydrated hydronium ion would have a net positive charge and need a conjugate base. I suspect the "active" ingredient will be some weak organic acid like citric or similar. The "MSDS" does not list any real ingredients so is also cobblers. The whole think sounds like a shampoo advert trying so make hair soap sound glamorous.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Fulmen
International Hazard

Posts: 940
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bored

I agree. I tried looking up the CAS number (13986-08-6), couldn't find anything there either.

We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
brubei
Hazard to Self

Posts: 69
Registered: 8-3-2015
Member Is Offline

see Zundel and Eigen cation

Hydronium ion: H3O+
Zundel cation: H5O2+ (named for Georg Zundel)
Eigen cation: H9O4+ (named for Manfred Eigen)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_ion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grotthuss_mechanism
ficolas
Hazard to Others

Posts: 135
Registered: 14-5-2016
Member Is Offline

It would be hilarious if they were selling just plain water. It has a concentration of 10^-7 H3O2, so it has hydronium, and its pretty stable, so they add stabiliced.
They say it has a pH of 0, and it doesnt seem that much of a swindle
woelen

Posts: 6215
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

 Quote: Originally posted by sbreheny [...]The only hydronium I've ever heard of is H3O+ which only occurs in aqueous solution. [...]

Interestingly, this ion also exists in crystalline solids. The most common one is the salt hydronium perchlorate, [H3O]ClO4, which consists of H3O(+) ions and ClO4(-) ions. This salt is fairly stable and can be handled safely. It is much more stable than anhydrous perchloric acid.
This salt can be made from anhydrous perchloric acid and water.
It also is interesting to see that this compound is a solid (a salt, somewhat similar to ammonium perchlorate), while both anhydrous HClO4 (which is a covalent molecule) and more dilute HClO4 (e.g. 70% HClO4, which is fully ionized in aqueous solution) are liquids.
There are more solid hydronium salts, another one is [H3O][SbF6].

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at http://www.oelen.net/science
Metacelsus
International Hazard

Posts: 1966
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble

Interesting anecdote: I found out about hydronium perchlorate when I was vacuum distilling perchloric acid from sodium perchlorate and sulfuric acid, and a mysterious white solid started clogging my condenser. I thought I had added enough water to the sulfuric acid to make the distilled acid azeotropic, but apparently I added somewhat less than I should have, and got hydronium perchlorate depositing in the condenser.

As below, so above.
sbreheny
Hazard to Others

Posts: 108
Registered: 30-1-2014
Member Is Offline

Thanks to everyone for their answers. What about the second part of my question - has anyone heard of carborane acid and knows whether it is true that it can protonate almost anything but will not hurt your hand?
woelen

Posts: 6215
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: interested

The story about this acid is true to some extent. There are so-called super acids HX, which extremely easily lose a proton to form X(-) anions. For some super-acids, the anion X(-) is very stable and unreactive. If a small quantity of such an acid comes in contact with skin then the water in/on the skin is protonated, while the other molecules in the skin are not affected. If more of this acid comes in contact with skin, then the other molecules can get protonated and damage can be done.

There are acids, which are so strongly acidic, that they can even protonate alkanes, or protonate benzene (C6H6) to C6H7(+). If such an acid is added to water, however, then the resulting solution is less corrosive than a solution of e.g. HCl of the same molarity. This is because the acid fully dissociates in water to form H3O(+) and higher hydrates of that and a totally benign anion.

HClO4 can be regarded as an example of this group of acid, albeit one of the weakest ones. When added to water, HClO4 completely ionizes to H3O(+) and ClO4(-). The ClO4(-) ion is very inert in aqueous solution (even more so than the unreactive sulfate ion) and such solutions only show acid behavior, no oxidizing behavior, nor coordinating/complexing behavior.

Carborane acids are a class of acids, based on some hydroboron-hydrocarbon compound, with optionally one or more of the hydrogen atoms substituted by something else like F or Cl. I do not know the details, however. Some of these acids can protonate benzene and even form stable salts with it, with the C6H7(+) cation in their crystal lattice.

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at http://www.oelen.net/science
blogfast25
Thought-provoking Teacher

Posts: 10337
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Old Blighty
Member Is Offline

 Quote: Originally posted by sbreheny Thanks to everyone for their answers. What about the second part of my question - has anyone heard of carborane acid and knows whether it is true that it can protonate almost anything but will not hurt your hand?

Much more on carborane acids, here:

Also some info on the higher oxonium ions:

$$\mathrm{ H_5O_2^+},\:\mathrm{ H_7O_3^+},\:\mathrm{ H_9O_4^+} ...$$

[Edited on 10-8-2016 by blogfast25]

Whichrabbitholeisthis
Harmless

Posts: 1
Registered: 28-11-2017
Member Is Offline

Hydronium & Bannix for pets

DraconicAcid
International Hazard

Posts: 2351
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Online

Mood: Semi-victorious.

Their website clais it contains "stabilized hydronium", which would mean it's aqueous acid of some low concentration (they say it's no more irritating than deionized water), so I suspect it's barely more than water. Scam alert.

Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
wg48
National Hazard

Posts: 490
Registered: 21-11-2015
Member Is Online

The MDS states it’s a water solution of 50% hydromium. Wow with no counter ion that would require a very very well electrically insulated and super strong bottle. A one litre bottle would have a potential of about 10^19 volts (from a quick calculation). Opening the bottle would cause a seriously large explosion equivalent to several meg tons of TNT. Just one drop of the stuff could power my car for a very very long time. It would make great rocket fuel too.

Yes total BS. I wonder how many bottles of it they have sold and why has California not shut them down.
Texium (zts16)
Super Moderator
29-11-2017 at 05:49
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard

Posts: 889
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline

I tried to look at the Blue Eagle product page for this claim, but both the link in this thread and the one available in the drop-down menu on Blue Eagle's webpage ("Non-Corrosive Acid" under "Products") take me to a "Not Found" page. Is it safe to say this is done with?

[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
wg48
National Hazard

Posts: 490
Registered: 21-11-2015
Member Is Online

 Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara I tried to look at the Blue Eagle product page for this claim, but both the link in this thread and the one available in the drop-down menu on Blue Eagle's webpage ("Non-Corrosive Acid" under "Products") take me to a "Not Found" page. Is it safe to say this is done with?

The MDS is still up see: http://www.blueeagleclean.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/SDS...

and from a different company https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web...

Perhaps its a way of hiding its just a HCl solution but don't they get in trouble for a false MDS.

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Beginnings » Hydronium H9O4??!! Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication   » References Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Whimsy   » Detritus   » The Moderators' Lounge