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Author: Subject: Swim et al.
woelen

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Swim et al.

Recently I become really irritated by all those posts of "swim" and variations on it of the form swi*. There is an explosion of this type of posts since a few weeks, especially in the section on organic chemistry. Sometimes this gives me the feeling as if I'm on a forum of meth-cooks and numb-minded drugs-addicted poor guys. Also, this attitude is a serious threat for the hobby of home chemistry. An occasional visitor may be confirmed in his/her ideas of many home chemists being drugs drools.

What can be done about that? Aren't we too friendly towards those cowards, who think they are smart with their abuse of this word. Frequently the scientific contents of these posts also is embarrassing, but that is not the main reason of my irritation.

OK, I have had my ramble... just felt the need to to do. I like swimming on hot summer days and please let us keep the meaning of the word like that .

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at http://www.oelen.net/science
Polverone
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I just searched. In the last week, there was one use of "swim" in the sense given here that went unchastised. I too believe that "swim" has no place here. I read many but not all threads. All members should consider themselves deputized to chastise people who abuse "swim" and to report flagrant cooking-threads to moderators.

Remember: I do not restrict discussion here based on the legal status of chemicals. I restrict it based on the communication, conduct, and attitude of the participants. We don't want a bunch of people who are here to be spoonfed recipes for their favorite chemicals.

If someone wishes to describe something without using "I", don't use "swim"; simply eliminate the self-reference. Instead of (for example) "swim dissolved 40 grams of sucrose in distilled water" or "swim was wondering where he could buy flowers of sulfur", the writer should say "40 grams of sucrose were dissolved in distilled water" or "where can flowers of sulfur be purchased?"

Internet superstition aside, I don't think doing a search-and-replace of SWIM and I in your posts is really any less incriminating should the point come where they are evidence against you in the criminal justice system. Laws are not computer programs that can be tricked or hacked with slightly altered input.

[Edited on 10-11-2006 by Polverone]

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Sandmeyer
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen Recently I become really irritated by all those posts of "swim" and variations on it of the form swi*.

I think it's silly, but I wouldn't get upset over it.

 Quote: There is an explosion of this type of posts since a few weeks, especially in the section on organic chemistry. Sometimes this gives me the feeling as if I'm on a forum of meth-cooks and numb-minded drugs-addicted poor guys.

You really get that feeling? Well, consider taking a brake -- wetdreams is another "chemistry" forum ...

 Quote: Also, this attitude is a serious threat for the hobby of home chemistry.

The real threat to "home chemistry" is not trailor-bubba with his matches but the rise of fascism in EU/USA.

 Quote: An occasional visitor may be confirmed in his/her ideas of many home chemists being drugs drools.

Frankly, I don't care what a randomly-surfing MTV-zombie or anyone else gets as an idea of home chemistry when visiting sciencemadness and other forums. There is enough of "don't-do-it-your-self-buy-it-instead-from-corporation-X" propaganda and demonization of chemistry in the media that an occasional SWIM post here and there is insignificant.

 Quote: What can be done about that? Aren't we too friendly towards those cowards, who think they are smart with their abuse of this word.

Don't we have more importnant things to do/think about?

 Quote: Frequently the scientific contents of these posts also is embarrassing, but that is not the main reason of my irritation.

But what's the main reason then?

[Edited on 11-10-2006 by Sandmeyer]

Magpie
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It seems that with "the hive" dysfunctional there are a lot of homeless bees desparately looking for somone to feed them. Swim and his buddies do provide something of value to this forum, however: comic relief.

The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
Nicodem
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I must admit that I also find all this SWIM-ing highly annoying. It took me quite some time to realize why. At first I also found it just as some sort of comic relief. But then over years of seeing it used in several organic chemistry or drug forums I got really annoyed for each time I got to read it. I now believe the reason why it annoys me is simply because I learned to connect it with ignorance, misinformation, amphetamine psychosis, stupidity, greed, scientific disregard and several other values I find disgraceful.
As I see it now, those who want to SWIM should be allowed to do so, but at the same time all these SWIMs should in turn allow to being ridiculed, mislead or ignored. This is in my opinion fully legitimate since no poster would be targeted, but only some third party, a certain SWIM, whoever that is, or whoever dares to identify under such a stupid name.

PS: Lately there has been an influx of SWIM-ers, which is in my opinion, due to Wetdreams forum malfunctioning. Therefore several wanabee meth-cooks thought to abuse other forums as their SWIM-ing "pool". But I surely don't find it worrisome that a casual forum visitor might find SWIM-er's posts as an indication that this forum is some kind of drug forum (If so, who cares?). What should be worrisome is that SWIM-er's posts indicate a severe regression in posting quality, misleading others in using the same low level of posting quality. It is not easy to improve the level of discussion in such a forum like this one. It takes many years of evolution. But it is very easy to deteriorate it. It only takes several such posts, concentrating the worst discourse possible, as an impetus to start a downhill domino effect.

…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)

12AX7
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Agreed.

Not only does SWIM usually show reduced intelligence, but the poster presenting SWIM's questions usually can't type English worth a damn either.

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
Elawr
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Count me in too! I'm tired of all those meth-head SWIMer types running around, posting all their cookbook recreational drug-oriented drivel on our forum. Gets on my nerves. So lets give'm hell. If I read any more SWIM posts, I'm gonna tell the poster he/she better not do that any more, and if he does, he's just asking to get taunted. I've got an acid tongue, and I can can go vitriolic if I have to!

1
jack-sparrow
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It may sound stupid, but what does SWIM means ?

YT2095
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Someone Without Inteligence Mainly.

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
woelen

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 Quote: Someone Without Inteligence Mainly.

That one I have not seen before, but I like it.

 Quote: Originally posted by Sandmeyer: But what's the main reason then?

I don't want to be associated with drugs-addicted drools, with their brains rotten away, and in such a deplorable state, that they even cannot write a normal correct sentence anymore (even if their native language is English).

[Edited on 13-10-06 by woelen]

The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at http://www.oelen.net/science
daeron
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen I don't want to be associated with drugs-addicted drools, with their brains rotten away, and in such a deplorable state, that they even cannot write a normal correct sentence anymore (even if their native language is English). [Edited on 13-10-06 by woelen]

oh so you want to be associated with bigots only then?
yes i am fond of the swim thing,and am proud to say that swim has been a part of the internet drug circles for a very long time now;and swim is not a retarded cook or a chemhack,so tell me why are You,the so elitist
oriented serious scientist willing to group all under one roof?

what you present here is flaming a rant of bigotry, and childish conceptions of drug use,and if you expected to show your high intellectual capabilities with this,you have shown just the opposite.

oh how sorry i...swim is that his drug plundered brain is so feeble that am i not able to even start to conceive the greater workings of your genius...pfff.

Humans with their brains are like a caveman with a supercomputer. Yes there is a chance that the caveman will use it to calculate the trajectories and the momentums of the celestial bodies, but the chances are that he will just crack open a coconut with it.
YT2095
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then perhaps SWIY would care to enlighten us all as to WHY you use such a ridiculously transparent mnemonic, that only a total fu(kt@rd cant see through?

What purpose does it serve?

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
daeron
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Do you know why the swim thing appeared?Because of the same “retards” you flame here.So you wouldn’t have people starting their posts with “I have a kilo of mdp2p”.You think it is because of the safety of the poster?Sheesh it is because of the safety of the FORUM.What it is going to be-swim,elfs,flying bricks or friggin daffodils it is the choice of the poster, and no one has the right even to argue about these things…unless you want to go synthetikal on our asses,hmm?

And apropos the law thing Polverone, you would be surprised that you are wrong about this. Laws are just written rules prone to interpretation, and SWIM actually knows of a case (and had personal experience with this too) that a SWIM-like concept made a bee free. Not all of us live in that nazi place in the west,yknow.

I still don’t understand the point of this thread? What do you want to accomplish? This isnt a complaint against the quality of the posts as i see. What is the purpose? Flame the meth cooks,or to show your despise for the drug culture or the bees? Or is it just a poor attempt at an intellectual dickwaving?

Humans with their brains are like a caveman with a supercomputer. Yes there is a chance that the caveman will use it to calculate the trajectories and the momentums of the celestial bodies, but the chances are that he will just crack open a coconut with it.
YT2095
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and how exactly does using "swim" protect a Forum then? is it a Google glitch whereby it cannot/will not list such posts or sites that contain this?

and lets face it, even if it was, its Hardly elegant is it!?

\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
jim20/20
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 Quote: Originally posted by woelen Also, this attitude is a serious threat for the hobby of home chemistry. An occasional visitor may be confirmed in his/her ideas of many home chemists being drugs drools.

an occasional visitor may be confirmed in his/her ideas of many home chemists being bomb makers or would be mass poisoners

these subjects scare the public not the language used

discuss and you feed the fear dont discuss and you have a very safe forum its a catch 22
chromium
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 Quote: Originally posted by daeron You think it is because of the safety of the poster?Sheesh it is because of the safety of the FORUM.

I understand what do you mean but such ways for safety are needed in forums that deal mostly with drugs or other clearly illegal activities. This forum does not need such kind of protection. On the contrary, swiming makes it look more like we were dealing with illegal stuff.

Almost all members here are interested in other parts of chemistry, not that much in the drug related stuff. For us drug discussions, especially when put rather unintelligent way, are not that interesting - but can well lead to problems. So why do you think, we should be that kind to those who come here not caring about the future of this forum just wishing to get some easy recipie and then (most probably) run away not contributing anything useful?

[Edited on 13-10-2006 by chromium]

When all think alike, then no one is thinking. - Walter Lippmann
Chris The Great
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I'd like to point out there have been several very interesting drug threads that have popped up- they all dealt with novel reactions or methods, had plenty of intelligent (and readable!) posting, etc etc, which I found quite interesting even though it wasn't in my "field" at all. We've also had quite a few "swim cant get his nitrostyrene to reduce got red solution wahts wrong?" posts by somebody with a single digit post count.

IMO it's just the normally infuriating newbie questions like those, combined with the fact the newbie is trying to cook drugs, that give this whole SWIM thing such a dislike amoung the posters here. If SWIM showed up and posted with proper English and detailed some novel chemistry and reactions (which gave a drug as the final product), I'm sure most of you wouldn't have much of a problem with it.

Well, that's my view.
ordenblitz
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Exactly!

This has less to do about what you chose to practice chemistry on, and more about your language and diction.

Swibonics not spoken here!!

The_Davster
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 Quote: Originally posted by Sandmeyer The real threat to "home chemistry" is not trailor-bubba with his matches but the rise of fascism in EU/USA.

I agree with woelen about the SWIM and drug stuff here, I personally don't like it one bit. It (and my Kewl username) is what is preventing me from refering a couple professors of mine to this site. But I also agree with Sandmeyer's above quote, but on a fundamental, rather than practical level. Sure, it would be ideal if anything could be discussed, my personal convictions aside, but these days with chemistry becoming criminal almost, and drug stuff on par with thoughtcrime, I believe a more hardline stance against such things would help ensure longterm survival of this site.

I guess it comes to whether we want to be fundamentalists and perhaps not last as long, or sacrifice some things for long term survival.

EDIT: I have no objection to the way that things such as this are discussed by people like Orgie or Flip or some others but some stuff like:
I am surprised was not detritus-ed
The latter got interesting later in the thread....but the inital question I don't think should be allowed to be asked. Some big complicated synth of some crazy designer drug of sorts...who cares, mainly those who are into that will get it(half the time I am only partly sure about some of the big organics discussed), but the synth of something as commonly known to the sheeple as meth is, is what I am against. Yes, it was worded in corect manner and avoided the apreviations commonly used by SWIMs, but the subject matter...We have that rule against piss-easy energetics like peroxides, why not apply it here as well?

[Edited on 14-10-2006 by rogue chemist]
Thermal
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Myself being guilty of said "indiscretion" on occasion, even not being a regular poster (i.e. It's doubtful anybody gives a shit), can't help but be a little insulted. It does seem a tad bigoted.

However given the general consensus on the board I'd like to hereby apologize; and will refrain from using the acronym in the future.

As an aside - I hate meth, would never take it or synth it, and can't stand most meth users. But it's just a chemical. The blame rests on the person, not the chemical or the words.

-+Cheers

[Edited on 14-10-2006 by Thermal]
Elawr
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This issue has much to do with maturity and discipline as it does the use or misuse of any given substance. The practice of chemistry is a very hard thing to learn. It takes years to aquire good working knowledge of even the basics. You have to be a good ways ahead of the pack IQ-wise to boot. But what you get in return is the power to manipulate matter in ways nobody ever dreamed of. Do all kind of cool things like make fire, tweak your brain chemistry any which way, and blow shit up. This is true power - and dangerous. Its a good thing chemistry is hard to learn, because the learning leads to wisdom and judgement needed to wield it safely - which this forum always advocates.

Everybody here, or mostly I hope have gone through and survived the dangerous adolescent stage of development where you engage in risk-seeking behavior. Mind-altering drugs and explosives are particularly seductive to the immature individual whose goal is immediate sensory gratification as opposed to intellectual growth and mastery of the science. Thus the phenomenon of the "kewl".

We should keep this in mind when we respond to the SWIM posts. Many will grow out of it in time. We can help them along by educating them in a positive way . Sometimes judicious taunting, ignoring, and other means of negative reinforcement are needed but not too much negative. And always with a good sense of humor. Don't want to turn them against the science if we can help it. We want them to grow up and maybe be like us... or maybe not?

1
12AX7
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Well said.

Tim

Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
Blind Angel
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I second, even though I don't like the use of SWIM, I don't think that it's that much of an offence. I'd be up to guide the user to more correct form of protocol, like using impersonnal writting (take a look at Shulgin's work, it's all into an impersonnal form, like if he watched the experience instead of doing it). I do have some post on this forum which I don't personnally like, and to be honest lately I simply refuse myself to post into thread which contain part that I don't understand, that's because i still consider myself to be too ignorant on most of the topic. I'm waiting.

I'm getting out of the topic atm sorry, what I mean is: we don't really have to bans out the usage of SWIM and reprimand the user, simply show a better way by posting our own experience using a informal style. I would like to mention that even though the case of SWIM is used a lot into psychoactive-chemistry, I've seen it a bit use into energetical-chemistry, so we shouldn't make a direct correlation yet.

Conclusion: let's develop guideline on how to write into and impersonnal style. I could work on a post like that or anybody with more experience in protocol developpement (I have no experience yet into protocol creation, I'm starting to grasp the importance and concept of lab note), this would be a) a very interesting post on side of basic chemistry knowledge and b) could also help to build a nice and clean style to any post, even if they are a bit k3wl-ish on the side, thus affecting less the mean average that some (including myself) want to keep.

My humble opinion.

/}/_//|//) /-\\/|//¬/=/_
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Sergei_Eisenstein
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If there's something I hate more then SWIMs, than that's more rules! Few rules are good because it means breaking the rules is hard. Also, in my opinion, many rules are the result of a society where people don't understand eachother well. I run into chemistry because it allows me to escape the daily zombie process. I would seriously dislike it if it became a reflection of daily life. I suggest either to (1) ignore, or (2) bash the hell out of them. Not when they SWIM; only when they SWIM and tell us in great detail about the mAgic pill extractor, how they gas with HCI, when they heroicly state they've extracted P from cow dung, or when they ask for a company where they can purchase DH2O. Perhaps Polv can create a "bash corner" next to detrius

My opinion of many of these meth-cooks obviously is very low. This is not because they cook (sic) meth; it's rather because they're interest is in the end product and not in the methods to get there. Imagine people flooding the forum, "As-salaamu Alaikum, I wonna kaboom BIG house. can I do this with fertiliser? HELP!" I guess you see that reeducation is not a fertile solution here. I see it like this for the SWIM - HCI gas - pill xtractor types. Reeducation is a waste of time.

damnant quod non intelligunt
Blind Angel
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To be honest I didn't saw that much of what you're talking about yet, yes we had some minor incursion but they we're mostly short lived and not noticeable. As you said more rules is not really better, and I don't think that making a rules for exception is better too. Until this become a plague, I don't think that we should be too hard. I know most of you will say that better be safe than sorry, but in that case we shouldn't be too much on the aseptic side. When The-Hive closed, we did gather some of the bees and with them came some of the Varroa Destructor (see Wikipedia) but we must make the discernement between the good bee who actually bring someting here, and some do it very well, and the parasit that came with them. Also The-Hive has been closed for about 2 years, I do think that this thrend is going down and what is now popping up is more what we call more commonly newbies which need to be educated, or they'll turn noobs.

Bashing is out of solution to me, it's useless, it's like giving benzodiazepines to everybody who has a small depression state (which is actually done), you help create the monster in that case. I'm still heading for reeducation solution. (Ref: ANDERSON, Hans Christain, "The Ugly Duckling", 1843)

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Pages:  1

 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Forum Matters » Swim et al. Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum