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Tricka90
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Why not EDDN?
According to The Preparatory Manual of Explosives, EDDN (Ethylenediamine dinitrate) seems like a very good choice as a secondary.
It's non toxic and has good stability, though it can be detonated by a primary charge.
It also has good power, considering his detonation velocity can be as high as 6915m/s at a specific gravity of 1.5 (according to this link).
The preparation process is very simple and the ingredients are a few and relatively easy to find (except ethylenediamine which is not widely
available, but not too much hard to find afterall).
I was surprised to find that there are very few discussions about EDDN on the internet, even in this forum there's just one short discussion and
nothing more.
Do you think there's any good reason why this explosive is not widely produced by chemistry enthusiasts?
Also in The Preparatory Manual of Explosives EDDN is evaluated just as Moderate (while Picric Acid is High, PETN Extremely High, etc.)
Am I missing something or Ethylenediamine dinitrate really is a very underrated secondary?
[Edited on 6-9-2016 by Tricka90]
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Lotilko
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The Preparatory Manual of Explosives contains some serious mistakes regarding syntheses. I don't think the author tried any of the processes described
in the book. I wouldn't use it as a no. 1 source for EM synthesis. Also nitroguanidine would be another good choice for an amateur chemist. Easy prep.
and approximately as powerful as TNT.
[Edited on 2016.9.6 by Lotilko]
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Tricka90
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Yes, nitroguanidine also seems like a good choice, but I never found any good info about how it can be properly detonated. Also it doesn't seems to be
effective when used alone, it's rather used alloyed with otther secondary explosives.
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Praxichys
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Ethylenediamine is nasty stuff, and next to impossible to manufacture yourself. If you can find it, you'll pay an arm and a leg for shipping. It fumes
in air, stinks, and is quite corrosive. There are many better things you can do with it than neutralize it with nitric acid and blow it up!
IMO it would be much easier to stick to nitrate esters. I can literally get everything I need for EGDN and PGDN from a single hardware store within
walking distance of my house. If I made a second stop at the GNC two miles away, I'd have erythritol, glycerol, cotton, and aspirin for ETN , NG, NC,
and TNP, respectively. Heck, if I went to the outdoor store for some hexamine, I could have RDX. All of these outperform EDDN by a good margin. Yes,
some have increased sensitivity, but none of them are dangerously unstable like organic peroxides. Their sensitivity makes them easy to fully detonate
which makes them attractive for amateurs.
If you're looking for a simpler synth (like EDDN), you can try hexamine dinitrate. Just neutralize powdered hexamine tablets with nitric acid. It's a
safer synth, still simple, and the product performs like nitroguanidine. You could also make hydrazine nitrate with popular hydrazine sulfate preps.
Regardless of power or sensitivity, people who just want to "blow stuff up" will always gravitate toward the easiest substances to prepare with the
easiest precursors they can gather, hence the unfortunate popularity of dangerous organic peroxides like AP, MEKP, and HMTD.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Praxichys described all in real running of the life. Manipulation, producing, advantage. From almost all question of Tricka 90 on S-M is clearly see,
that never making some EM. It is not error. The questions from harmless are usually same. And usually started question how to make nitrocellulose.
After study is for his clearly, that preparation of nitrocellulose is pretty disadvantage. And that better is prepare ETN. And that best is prepare
PETN. Minimum amount of acids and huge yeld and highest working effect. On ratio price / power. Dr.
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | The preparation process is very simple and the ingredients are a few and relatively easy to find (except ethylenediamine which is not widely
available, but not too much hard to find after all). |
Ledgard is an obvious idiot who should be ignored ─ and the substrate nitratable to EDNA is ethyleneurea not ethylenediamine!
Derived from reaction of the diamine with urea its synth. is slow and is normally performed under pressure!
Ooops! My mistake ─ I thought you referred to EDNA, a nitramine less powerful than, but similar to RDX.
The di-nitrated diamine is less powerful still and at one time was used as a constituent of ANFO mixes!
More here!
[Edited on 6-9-2016 by hissingnoise]
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Tricka90
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Thank you for all your replies and the useful information provided.
I didn't thought about all the problems you listed, I'm just a beginner who made just a little experience with the production of easy primaries such
as SADS and HMTD.
Right know I'm looking for the right secondary to experiment with (I'm contemplating picric acid).
I didn't know The Preparatory Manual of Explosives to be full of mistakes and bad written, thank you for the warning.
Could you please recommend me any other Explosives preaparation manual which you think is better?
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Lotilko
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The Organic Chemistry of Explosives is a good read. It should turn up as a free pdf on search. Also, what class of energetics are you the most
interested in?
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Tricka90
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Thanks a lot Lotilko, I easily found it (for anyone who is interest that's the link).
| Quote: |
what class of energetics are you the most interested in? |
I'm sorry, I don't think I'm expert enough to define a precise class I'm interested in.
In general I'm interested in secondary explosives which can be made with readily available ingredients, possibly not too much unstable and toxic.
[Edited on 6-9-2016 by Tricka90]
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Lotilko
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Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90  | Thanks a lot Lotilko, I easily found it (for anyone who is interest that's the link).
| Quote: |
what class of energetics are you the most interested in? |
I'm sorry, I don't think I'm expert enough to define a precise class I'm interested in.
In general I'm interested in secondary explosives which can be made with readily available ingredients, possibly not too much unstable and toxic.
[Edited on 6-9-2016 by Tricka90] |
No problem. I know it has been metioned on the forum a million times but those new to energetics seem to underestimate the magnitude of the situation,
so here's a friendly reminder: avoid peroxides like the black plague, especially MEKP and TATP. HMTD might seem stable but after several months of
storage it tends to go off even if completely free of acids and bases. So do not use peroxide based primaries.
As for secondaries, if you have proper gear, you should be able to produce almost any known high explosive. And by my previous question, I meant like,
are you intersted in powrful explosives even exceeding RDX in performance, or other less powerful ones like TNT and related aromatic explosives?
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Tricka90
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Thanks a lot for your interest.
I will follow your advise and stick with stable primaries like SADS.
I've read about the synthesis of TNT and RDX but I found them to be hard for me right know, also considering I don't have the proper apparatus to make
90 percent nitric acid.
I'm going to make ANFO+10%Al which I know is safe and easy to produce. The only problem is I don't think it can be detonated just by SADS, is it
correct?
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Lotilko
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As far as my knowledge goes, AN mixtures need confinement and require boosters. I have a document which compares initiating properties of primaries. I
will post it if I can find it. If I recall correctly, SASD was one of the best initiator.
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Lotilko
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Here's a book on primaries:
http://libgen.io/get.php?md5=934980EA3D21F3B15A6D6F7BACBE241...
I think it's your best source to find a primary that would suit your needs.
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Tricka90
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Thank you for the interest, but I'm not sure how to use the website you linked...
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Lotilko
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Search for primary explosives on the site and download it. I wanted to upload it but the size limit is 8 MB.
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roXefeller
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lotilko | | As far as my knowledge goes, AN mixtures need confinement and require boosters. I have a document which compares initiating properties of primaries. I
will post it if I can find it. If I recall correctly, SASD was one of the best initiator. |
I haven't put booster to ANFO yet but in my reading of The Blasters Handbook from ISEE, being a blasting agent, ANFO requires more than a #8 cap to
detonate (i.e. booster required). But the AN-Al mixture is set off from high velocity rifle shots as a exploding target (though I could be led to
believe this was actually high speed deflagration if someone wanted to correct me). While AN is insensitive certain mixtures of it are more sensitive
than others.
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Tricka90
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Wow the website si excellent. I found lots of very good books for free, the one about Primary Explosives is outstanding, it has lots of in-depth
analysis about SADS which I never found before anywhere.
Thank you for your informations roXefeller. I think ANFO is the most sensitive AN mixture I can make since I don't have Nitromethane available to make
ANNM.
I will try to detonate ANFO using a blasting cap with about 1gr SADS and 1gr or more Picric Acid. I think that is going to work.
[Edited on 7-9-2016 by Tricka90]
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Lotilko
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I think one could sensitize AN with urea or copper(II) oxide. Urea could form urea nitrate and the copper(II) oxide could form TACN, which itself is a
primary. I wanted to try copper sensitized AN but never had the opportunity. I wouldn't recommend mixing the two, it's just an idea.
On the other hand, urea nitrate should be simple to prepare if you have urea, an alkali metal nitrate and hydrochloric acid. It's on the site wiki.
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OneEyedPyro
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ANFO is quite insensitive compared to many other AN mixes, powdered AN/Al is cap sensitive at various ratios.
Contrary to popular belief nearly all nitro EMs can be prepared with a nitrate salt in place of nitric acid, TNT and PETN are two notable examples
commonly though to require nitric acid.
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MineMan
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Tricka.
A few things I know for sure. ANFO is reported as needing a booster, this is done in the mines but is not necessary for us. Crushed ANFO with
microballoons IS cap sensitive.
The most sensitive ANAL mixture is 95% AN 5% Al, yes this is not Oxygen Balanced, but is the most sensitive it has a critical dia of 6mm! Of course
make sure your AN is as dry and fine as possible, and your Al as small as possible.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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EDDN (ethylene diamine dinitrate) would be much less interesting than EDDP (ethylene diamine diperchlorate); since EDDP would display more
sensitivity, a higher density, a higher VOD and as a result more brisance.
EDDC (ethylene diamine dichlorate) should be even more sensitive than EDDP but less powerful (stil probably better than EDDN)...EDDC will probably be
near a primary...but datas about it are lacking so care must be used when attempting its synthesis what requires HClO3 (dangerous above 35%
concentration because of explosive ClO2(g) release)...of course EDDC is to play with in minute amount ... and not for long storage --> for obvious
safety reasons ... unless study proves it is stabile enough (most organic amine chlorate are quite friction and shock sensitive even more than the
related perchlorates!).
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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Tricka90
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Thank you for all your very informative answer, I really appreciate it.
So are you saying ANAL is more sensitive than ANFO? Only 6 mm as critical diameter is very good! That means ANAL can be detonated even in very small
quantities (way less than 100 grams) !
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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For study recommend Gordon mixture. Free available patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US3247033
Very low critical diameter and maybe (according all attempts) most powerfull binary mix ANFO. Primary sensitive from 300 mg almost anything primary
compound. Best density for full power is 1,25g /cm3. Usually is best density for ANFO 0,7 - 0,9 g /cm3. Thus, at same the space gives Gordon mixture
bigger power. Shortly, more energy in 1 cm3. Worked from 10g mini charge from primary 0,3g. ......Dr....
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite (2024)
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kratomiter
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| Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90 |
Wow the website si excellent. I found lots of very good books for free, the one about Primary Explosives is outstanding, it has lots of in-depth
analysis about SADS which I never found before anywhere.
Thank you for your informations roXefeller. I think ANFO is the most sensitive AN mixture I can make since I don't have Nitromethane available to make
ANNM.
I will try to detonate ANFO using a blasting cap with about 1gr SADS and 1gr or more Picric Acid. I think that is going to work.
[Edited on 7-9-2016 by Tricka90] |
One advice: as silver compounds are expensive, try to make a few grams of any nitrated polyol (MHN, ETN, PETN...). With just 50 mg of SADS you can
detonated well pressed MHN: 300 mg MHN can detonate almost any secondary like picric acid. Or even use itself as a booster in >2 grams quantities.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | For study recommend Gordon mixture. Free available patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US3247033
Very low critical diameter and maybe (according all attempts) most powerfull binary mix ANFO. Primary sensitive from 300 mg almost anything primary
compound. Best density for full power is 1,25g /cm3. Usually is best density for ANFO 0,7 - 0,9 g /cm3. Thus, at same the space gives Gordon mixture
bigger power. Shortly, more energy in 1 cm3. Worked from 10g mini charge from primary 0,3g. ......Dr.... |
LL, which of his mixtures are you referring to? the 91%AN and 9% Hexamine? when you experimented with this was it in powder form or did you melt it
like he describes?
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