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Sauron
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I am simply pointing out that hobbyists have little leverage.
Where I am I can buy all the I2 I want but no red P. I have uses for both. It is very unlikely that I will be granted a MOD permit to import any red
P. Not impossible but probably more trouble than I dem it to be worth.
So what has my response been?
I have found workarounds to virtually every reaction for which I thought elemental phosphorus would be required.
So I will not be applying for that permit and jumping through hoops. Nor will I be harvesting striker strips from matchbooks/boxes. Nor rending my
garments and gnashing my teeth.
As for the inconveniencing of my fellow hobbyists by the unavailability of red P, to them, I sympathize but I blame the meth cooks for this situation,
and much more. I disagree with MJP that they should be flogged with wet noodles and sternly talked to, then released. I do not think their sentences
are out of line. They are ruining a LOT more than our hobby.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Pulverulescent
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I was tempted to make remarks on the situation on your adopted doorstep, but that's a different ball-game---another arena altogether!
Mad, mad world, though, Don't you think?
P
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Pulverulescent
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I believe the source of all our problems is political expediency; it really is that simple!
If you can contradict that--- go ahead!
P
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Sauron
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That's both vague and broad-brush. Anywayas I have said before, and which seems to surprise some, my personal belief is that the WOD is a lost cause,
and should be abandoned. I have made detailed proposals of how the aftermath ought to be arranged to disempower organized crime (drug traffickers) and
prevent the emergence of any new black market(s). In short give the stuff away and let people poison themselves. Meanwhile anyone trying to resell the
stuff would be dealth with very harshly indeed.
I hope that brief encapsulation will suffice as I do not wish to repeat myself, lengthier earlier threads on this are available via FSE.
As for Burma, if you knew the bilateral history you would know why Thai sympathy is muted. Basically people here regard 100,000 dead Burmese as...a
good start. You must understand that Burma three times invaded Siam, the last time was around the time of the American Revolution, and they totally
destroyed the Siamese capitol, Ayudhya, which was a glittering metropolis of a million people when London and Paris were villages. The Burmese left
hardly a stone on top of another, cut the heads off all the Buddha images, and carried off many Siamese into slavery. This is a scenario I would
expect a fellow Gael to understand. My wife is from that province, 150 miles north of Bangkok. I have been there many times.
So do not judge the Thais too harshly, the Irish are not the only people to have suffered at the hands of their neighbors. Fortunately unlike the 800
year Irish occupation and enslavement, the Burmese occupation only lasted a decade before the Siamese drove them out, relocated the capitol to a more
stragically defensible position (where it remains and I reside) and established the present Chakri Synasty.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Pulverulescent
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'Sorry Sauron, I'm inclined to let that particular bug-bear of unwarranted political interference in people's lives get to me!
Recently I went as far as printing-out a "Category 2 Drug Precursors" form from the BHO with the intention of filling it out to get a miserable 500ml
Ac20.
I then rang the Home Office, and the minion (Smallman) I spoke to told me my chances of getting temporary license were next to zero.
The reason I gave was "acetylating small wood sculptures" which is a legitimate use.
Had the reason been genuine, I still couldn't have gotten it!
I still have the form! Fuck them to hell!
And 'sorry about the littering f-words!
P
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Pulverulescent
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The other thing is, I don't think the past should influence the present in the way it does.
And yes, I know, opinions, like assholes, are things everyone has one of.
P
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Sauron
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But the past always influences the present.
Ask the Germans. Ask the Jews.
Ask the Palestinians.
Ask the people in Northern Ireland.
If Michael Collins were alive you could ask him.
Ask the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Lots of them were not alive in 1945, yet they are still being affected, genetically.
Those who ignore the lessons of history will be condemned to repeat them.
With a bit of effort you can prepare your own Ac2O. Are you allowed acetyl chloride?
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Pulverulescent
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'Come on Sauron, you know as well as I do, history is an endless series of depressing re-runs.
Minor details change but that's about it!
As for AA, I have a possible source for for acetyl chloride--- if it fails, it's the ketene route.
It won't be tomorrow, though, but I'll work something out.
P
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MagicJigPipe
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I'm not sure exactly what I believe right now, actually. I think methcooks should be punished but I also think users should be held accountable for
their own actions. Either way, both parties need help and are not necessarily bad people. Some cooks are just "junkies" themselves trying to support
their habit. I don't think a lot of these people should be thrown in prison for the majority of their adult lives because they went down the wrong
path.
I suppose I just think the prison terms are WAY TOO LONG. Perhaps the longer terms should be reserved for repeat offenders.
I just wish there was a way to not harm ANYONE. Even methcooks are people that don't actually set out to harm anyone and/or don't even know or
believe they are causing harm. Punished? Yes. As severly as they are now? No.
All the other stuff I'm still developing an opinion about, sort of.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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12AX7
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It's what, Norway or Sweeden where they're giving drugs for free? Evidently administering drugs in a safe environment is cheaper than persecution, so
they save money. With druggies off the streets, demand is down and the streets are safer with less policing. Sounds like a good plan to persue
elsewhere; perhaps on city level at first, then state, then finally federally if it works out well.
Tim
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MagicJigPipe
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I agree. There is no doubt in my mind that this country would be a better place with a system like that. Too many innocent people are dying because
of prohibition for a plethera of reasons.
I remember reading somewhere that the percentage of Americans who admitted to using drugs was 1.3% when all drugs were virtually legal and 1.3% now.
That could be because people are scared to give out that information but I believe that drug use would only go up slighlty. Use goes up slighlty,
deaths from murder, overdose and abuse go down exponentially. That seems like a good trade to me.
Oh shit! We shouldn't let this become a drug control debate so we don't get the thread locked!
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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woelen
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In the Netherlands this is done as well. People, addicted to heroin can get heroin, or methadon. This indeed helps keeping them from the street but
there are some side-effects, such as people selling the received materials if they do not need it as much as they used to. There also is another side
effect, which makes it hard to find a good location for such distribution centres. A lot of persons are attracted by this kind of centres, and these
persons usually are of the type, which are not welcomed by the people in the direct neighbourhood of the distribution centre.
Best of course is to try to get people clean and getting rid of all the trouble. In the Netherlands we also have such places, which try to make people
really clean. These are called "The hope", pointing to the hope of having a normal life again, with a job and normal living standards. Drugs really
sucks and whatever "solution" is chosen (be it "The hope" or distributing methadon) the life of such persons already is completely ruined. In NL we
are quite lax about drugs, but this definitely has its downside as well (also attracting people from Germany, France or even further, who cannot get
the stuff in their own country).
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Pulverulescent
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One person dying from the effects of prohibition is one too many, MagicJigPipe.
And since this is a legal/societal issue we shouldn't worry too much about Polverone taking exception.
Genuine chemistry hobbyists, as most of us are, should not be affected by arbitrary, unnecessary laws.
We could probably make some, possibly small, contribution to the science if we had the access to reagents and apparatus industry and academia has.
But we're debarred by law and that's just fucking not acceptable!
P
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Pulverulescent
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I can't buy even a piece of PGM alloy without jumping through a few hoops to get it.
For the life of me, I can't see why Pt/Ir carries restrictions, aside of price, but suppliers won't sell to me as an individual.
P
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Pulverulescent
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
But the past always influences the present. |
. . .and in all the wrong ways. . .
P
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MagicJigPipe
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There's methadone clinics in the US, too, woelen. Diversion of prescription drugs is going to be a problem with or without prohibition. Only without
prohibition less people will be in prison and less parents torn from their children just because they had a couple of pain pills that they didn't have
a prescription for. It's stupid, horrible and just plain wrong for stuff like that to happen. I think it is one of the worst human right's
violations in history.
I know someone personally who had her children taken away because she was arrested for possession of a prescription drug for which she had no
prescription. Taking the pills in no way diminished her ability to be a good mother (in fact, she was taking them for pain because no doctor would
touch her with a ten foot pole which is common in the US because of how doctors fear the DEA) and she was a functioning member of society. Yet now
she is in prison and her kids have to live (I assume) in a foster home. I know she didn't have much family so I'm almost certain that's what
happened.
How is that right? How is that justice?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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joeflsts
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This thread is a case study in maturity and responsibility.
Joe
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Pulverulescent
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
I think it is one of the worst human right's violations in history. |
If not the very worst!
P
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joeflsts
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pulverulescent
| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
I think it is one of the worst human right's violations in history. |
If not the very worst!
P |
What do you classify as the worst.....
Joe
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soxhlet
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If those who own/moderate this site have a couple of IQ points to rub together so as to obtain a clue, they will refrain from controlling/censoring
popular discussions of the pros and cons of chemistry even if the pros and cons relate to socially abhorrent topics such as drugs and bombs.
The population of pinheaded geeks is insufficient to obtain profit from underline links.
I have been acquainted with clandestine chemistry for several decades. Plenty long to see both the pros of thrilling growth in knowledge and the cons
of see friends dying from drug usage.
I have managed much success as a leader of engineering in a major corporation. But, when I here that recreational substance usage harm the “morals
of society”,, suddenly, I want to puke.
I rarely even drink.
The “morals of society”? So, anyone who uses drugs doesn’t count as a member of society. Sort of set a new high mark in self-congratulatory
exclusive arrogance. Fuck the morals of those who think they know best.
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MagicJigPipe
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Like I said, it's a double standard. It's ignorant and arrogant. People who base their morals on law have no moral fiber to begin with.
How hypocritical is it that those same people will condemn someone for using drugs (even if it doesn't really harm them, as in the use, not ABuse) and
then go have a drink, a smoke and then a benadryl to help them sleep?
I used to take alprazolam without a prescription occasionally to help with the "anxiety" I used to have because the doctor was apparently too "afraid"
to prescribe it to me (I wasted over $100 on that visit, by the way). Should I have gone to jail for that? Should the person that gave them to me
have gone to jail? If so, why? How would that benefit society? What good would that have done? Am I a bad person?
If it weren't for that medication I probably would have lost my job at the time. Apparently prohibitionists can't even imagine that drugs can be
"used for good". It's rediculous, IMO.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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MJP, I am sorry to have to say that it is clear that you have not the slightest idea of what a world class human rights abuse might be, much less the
worst one in history.
You really think what you are talking about deserves to be on the same page as:
-- the Holocaust
-- the Cambodian genocide
-- the Armenian genocide
-- the Soviet purges and the Gulags
-- the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward in China
-- countless African tribal bloodbaths, e.g.Rwanda, the Congo, or what is likely to soon occur in the former Rhodesia
the rape of Nanking
Your lack of perspective is truly astonishing.
[Edited on 11-5-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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MagicJigPipe
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Okay, the most subversive. One that the entire world believes is right. Seemingly clouded by the most widespread propaganda campaign in history. I
can't think of a good word right now but it's right there for everyone to see yet no one sees it because they are apathetic or think there is no way
it could be wrong. I was exaggerating when I said the worst in history. I know much about history (not as much as you. Hopefully, I will when I get
older and wiser). It is one of my favorite "subjects".
I made a mistake. It is one of the worst in history. Which, technically means that it just isn't the best.
Sauron, our opinions on this matter may differ but I believe strongly that when you get down to it we have the same principles. I just happened to be
personally affected by this madness and therefore have a different view on how it is and how it should be.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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No need for me to belabor the point further. But it is not one of the worst travesties of human rights in history, and not even an also-ran. It is
just that you are a one-issue individual, you seem to be a broken record on the subject, and my recommendation is that you give it a rest and
diversify your repetoire.
And I say that amicably.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Pulverulescent
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IMO, comparing various atrocities one against the other seems a bit futile; we should be more concerned with the here-and -now.
The WOD/WOT is ongoing, openended and more or less global!
These evils (a word I don't often use, being atheist) are variants of each other.
And there's barely a glimmer of light at the end of this particular stygian tunnel!
P
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