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[*] posted on 29-12-2016 at 22:05
Sodium Carbonate and Aluminum reaction


The reaction by hot sodium carbonate and aluminum is very odd to me the reaction produces hydrogen gas
NaCO3 + Al --> Al3(OH)2 + H2 and CO2?

Is this correct

At room temperature it is not noticeable of a reaction
Could be used in a diy aluminum battery maybe
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[*] posted on 30-12-2016 at 07:14


The above equation is neither balanced, nor does the "trialuminium dihydroxide" exist... you magically obtain hydrogen atoms out of nowhere and there is no sodium at the end either.

As for the reaction, aluminium can't reduce sodium cations...
What are your sources/what reaction did you have in mind?




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[*] posted on 30-12-2016 at 07:26


The main reaction is between water and aluminum: 2 Al + 6 H2O-> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2
The sodium carbonate simply attacks the protective layer of Al2O3 that forms on aluminum in contact with air, allowing it to react with water.




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[*] posted on 27-3-2017 at 15:23


The Al reaction in a base, be it Na2CO3 or NaOH (both in hot water) is it the same?


This is quoted from another thread:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4832&a...
Quote: Originally posted by 12AX7  




Quote:
Al + Na2CO3 + H2O => Nothing happens. You just get a solution of Na2CO3 with pieces of aluminium in it...At least this is what I got when I tried it 2 minutes ago.


If the aluminum oxide layer is removed (mercury amalgam could be used), the aluminum will reduce the H2O, leaving Na2CO3 in solution and Al(OH)3 in suspension. It should react slowly, since Na2CO3 is basic and will dissolve a small amount of aluminum (not much, since CO3-- is stronger than AlO2-, correct?).

At high temperatures, the aluminum will reduce carbonate to carbide, releasing sodium as vapor at this temperature. This would be written: 3Na2CO3(l) + 10Al(l) = Al4C3(s) + 3Al2O3(l) + 6Na(g).
( (l) is liquid, (s) solid, (g) gas. Na2CO3 and/or Al may be gas at the required temperature, and I'm not sure if Al4C3 will decompose to Al(g) + C(s).)
This reaction is probably not self-sustaining. However, the analogous reaction using sulfate or nitrate instead of carbonate, proceeds quickly.

Tim


I'm wondering what the resulting Al compound will be if Na2CO3 is used and what if NaOH is used. Also, how fast is the base used up?

This was brought to my attention by a guy who says he uses carbonate and Al as a hydrogen generator for glass blowing. I was wondering if CO2 was evolved at all but it doesn't seem like it is.

I'm wondering which of the by products of either using carbonate or hydroxide is usable or non-toxic and which would be the better to use for H2 generation.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 01:49


As a sort of tangent to the OP's reaction, could a high temperature reaction take place to place produce sodium?

3Na2CO3 + 2Al -> Al2O3 + 6Na +3CO2

I'm intuiting this would take place at about 600- 800C, and looks like a fairly clean way of producing Na.

ahem...stoics!



[Edited on 28-3-2017 by Chemetix]
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 01:59


Sounds intriguing. How do the thermodynamics work out for that one? (I'm on my phone and can't look up details atm.)

If it does work it is a clever technique.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 02:35


Make sure you use anhydrous Na2CO3 !!
decahydrate is a lot of water (an 18:10.6 ratio of water to carbonate)

H.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 03:21


Henri Étienne Sainte-Claire Deville and the Deville process at 1200C....just makes sodium aluminate....bugger!
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sad.gif posted on 28-3-2017 at 10:08


Hehe. Please don't take offense to this but the op's equation reminded me of my own equations for the first month or so of freshman organic chem. With no absolutely chem experience and having been out of school for almost 10 years, the first month was a bit overwhelming to say the least....I also apologize for contiributing nothing of substance to the thread.:(
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 15:11


Here is an extract of my prior comment on this forum outlining the chemistry in my opinion:

"Caution with Na2CO3, a boiling aqueous solution of Washing Soda behaves like NaOH, and readily attacks Aluminum utensils causing pitting!

I have verified this with Al foil and boiling Na2CO3 heated in a microwave.

The action of water on Na2CO3, I could express by the reversible reactions:

Na2CO3 + H2O = NaOH + NaHCO3

NaHCO3 + H2O = NaOH + H2O + CO2

and with heating, the escape of CO2 moves the reaction to the right. This is confirmed by a reference to quote:

"In aqueous solution, carbon dioxide production begins at room temperature and decomposition of NaHCO3(aq) is essentially complete if the solution is brought to boiling."

Link: http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/inorganic/faq/c...

Contributing would be the introduction of Al, which reacts/removes NaOH, also moving the reaction to the right.

Interestingly, in a cold solution, there is no evidence of any reaction."
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 16:21


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
The main reaction is between water and aluminum: 2 Al + 6 H2O-> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2
The sodium carbonate simply attacks the protective layer of Al2O3 that forms on aluminum in contact with air, allowing it to react with water.

That reaction is not possible. That reaction is what an alkali metal does with water, like sodium or potassium.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 16:45


Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
The main reaction is between water and aluminum: 2 Al + 6 H2O-> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2
The sodium carbonate simply attacks the protective layer of Al2O3 that forms on aluminum in contact with air, allowing it to react with water.

That reaction is not possible. That reaction is what an alkali metal does with water, like sodium or potassium.


I strongly disagree. Aluminium does react with water, when without an oxide coating (like in presence of Cl- or OH-, or with an amalgam)- this I know from personal experience.

I also found this, if you doubt me. https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/alumi...




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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 17:17


Quote: Originally posted by myristicinaldehyde  
Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
The main reaction is between water and aluminum: 2 Al + 6 H2O-> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2
The sodium carbonate simply attacks the protective layer of Al2O3 that forms on aluminum in contact with air, allowing it to react with water.

That reaction is not possible. That reaction is what an alkali metal does with water, like sodium or potassium.


I strongly disagree. Aluminium does react with water, when without an oxide coating (like in presence of Cl- or OH-, or with an amalgam)- this I know from personal experience.

I also found this, if you doubt me. https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/alumi...


I was talking about with just aluminum and water, and nothing else. Trust me, sticking a piece of aluminum in water won't do anything. If you had something to destroy the oxide coating, then yes it would.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 18:15


Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
Quote: Originally posted by myristicinaldehyde  
Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
The main reaction is between water and aluminum: 2 Al + 6 H2O-> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2
The sodium carbonate simply attacks the protective layer of Al2O3 that forms on aluminum in contact with air, allowing it to react with water.

That reaction is not possible. That reaction is what an alkali metal does with water, like sodium or potassium.


I strongly disagree. Aluminium does react with water, when without an oxide coating (like in presence of Cl- or OH-, or with an amalgam)- this I know from personal experience.

I also found this, if you doubt me. https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/alumi...


I was talking about with just aluminum and water, and nothing else. Trust me, sticking a piece of aluminum in water won't do anything. If you had something to destroy the oxide coating, then yes it would.
No need to try and cover your ass, it was clear what you meant. Always double check before you go jumping to statements like "this reaction is impossible" when its clear from reading previous posts that in the context of the thread it is. You hastily replied without really reading or comprehending Fulmen's whole post.

There are other ways to demonstrate the reaction of aluminum and water as well, such as placing a bit of amalgam with mercury or gallium in water- it will react vigorously.




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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 18:16


The original poster's reaction equation does not show water as either a reactant or a product. But since it is not balanced, who knows what the point is? Postulating possible products requires more information about what reactants/products/reaction conditions are involved. Such a vague question is not conducive of a specific answer. More details about the original process could lead to a more detailed answer.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 19:18


Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
Quote: Originally posted by myristicinaldehyde  
Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
The main reaction is between water and aluminum: 2 Al + 6 H2O-> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2
The sodium carbonate simply attacks the protective layer of Al2O3 that forms on aluminum in contact with air, allowing it to react with water.

That reaction is not possible. That reaction is what an alkali metal does with water, like sodium or potassium.


I strongly disagree. Aluminium does react with water, when without an oxide coating (like in presence of Cl- or OH-, or with an amalgam)- this I know from personal experience.

I also found this, if you doubt me. https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/alumi...


I was talking about with just aluminum and water, and nothing else. Trust me, sticking a piece of aluminum in water won't do anything. If you had something to destroy the oxide coating, then yes it would.
No need to try and cover your ass, it was clear what you meant. Always double check before you go jumping to statements like "this reaction is impossible" when its clear from reading previous posts that in the context of the thread it is. You hastily replied without really reading or comprehending Fulmen's whole post.

There are other ways to demonstrate the reaction of aluminum and water as well, such as placing a bit of amalgam with mercury or gallium in water- it will react vigorously.

I think we have different definitions of vigorous. I have placed gallium in water, and it is very clear that it is oxodising, but nothing else, really.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 19:34


Once again you failed to actually read my post. I described placing an amalgam of aluminum with either mercury or gallium in water, not gallium alone. You've once again made the point that I was trying to stress in my last post- you need to fully read and comprehend other peoples' posts before making a statement that is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Read. Think. Post (or don't post, if you realize that you have nothing to contribute).



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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 20:05


Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
I think we have different definitions of vigorous. I have placed gallium in water, and it is very clear that it is oxodising, but nothing else, really.

You tried to correct someone with wrong information. Now stop playing dumb, and go back and take your public shaming like a man!

The idea is that sodium carbonate could remove aluminum's passivating layer by forming CO2 and this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_aluminate
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 21:18


Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
I think we have different definitions of vigorous. I have placed gallium in water, and it is very clear that it is oxodising, but nothing else, really.

You tried to correct someone with wrong information. Now stop playing dumb, and go back and take your public shaming like a man!

The idea is that sodium carbonate could remove aluminum's passivating layer by forming CO2 and this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_aluminate

What do you mean? If I was wrong about gallium's reaction with water, please correct me. I would be interested to hear what it does.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2017 at 21:21


Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Once again you failed to actually read my post. I described placing an amalgam of aluminum with either mercury or gallium in water, not gallium alone. You've once again made the point that I was trying to stress in my last post- you need to fully read and comprehend other peoples' posts before making a statement that is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Read. Think. Post (or don't post, if you realize that you have nothing to contribute).

I don't understand what you said. A mixture of gallium or mercury? Are you saying that I need both mercury and gallium, or just one?
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[*] posted on 29-3-2017 at 01:33


Quote: Originally posted by Booze  
I don't understand what you said. A mixture of gallium or mercury? Are you saying that I need both mercury and gallium, or just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgam_(chemistry)

Since gallium melts at 30˚C, its alloys are also commonly referred to as "amalgams".

[Edited on 3/29/17 by Melgar]
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