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D4RR3N
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[*] posted on 7-1-2017 at 16:10
Cleaning Denatured Ethanol


I want to make some herbal tinctures by adding grain alcohol with the herbal matter. The only problem is I can only get denatured alcohol (surgical spirit) and I don't want the poisonous junk that they add. I am using the tincture externally but still I don't want the additives.

Is there a simple way I can clean it up, I was thinking of putting it through a carbon water filter jug but not sure if that would do the trick or not.
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JJay
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[*] posted on 7-1-2017 at 16:15


Every time I read this question, I'm tempted to answer it, but it's illegal to remove the denaturants from denatured alcohol, so I refrain.



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[*] posted on 7-1-2017 at 16:33


I can get high proof vodka 96% but it is very expensive...feel free to u2u me ;)
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[*] posted on 7-1-2017 at 18:18


I don't think it's actually illegal to remove denaturants, at least in the US, as long as there is no intent to use it for human consumption. It's certainly not illegal to say how to do it, thanks to the first amendment, so I'll go for it. The trouble is that they never list all the denaturants on the label or the MSDS for hardware store denatured alcohol. However, a lot of places sell ethyl rubbing alcohol, intended for application on skin, which is 70% ethanol containing denatonium benzoate as the only denaturant. That should be usable as-is for you, since 95% ethanol is probably too high for tinctures anyway. If you (not YOU you, but "you" in the sense that the English language has all but rid itself of the use of "one" as a subject, and replaced it with "you") don't want to have a bitter taste in your mouth every time you put something in your mouth that you touched, a single distillation will make short work of that. Add calcium oxide (made by heating calcium hydroxide, sold as hydrated lime, to 500C or so, or you can order it online) before distillation if you want to remove the water too.

[Edited on 1/8/17 by Melgar]
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JJay
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[*] posted on 7-1-2017 at 23:34


Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
I don't think it's actually illegal to remove denaturants, at least in the US, as long as there is no intent to use it for human consumption. It's certainly not illegal to say how to do it, thanks to the first amendment, so I'll go for it. The trouble is that they never list all the denaturants on the label or the MSDS for hardware store denatured alcohol. However, a lot of places sell ethyl rubbing alcohol, intended for application on skin, which is 70% ethanol containing denatonium benzoate as the only denaturant. That should be usable as-is for you, since 95% ethanol is probably too high for tinctures anyway. If you (not YOU you, but "you" in the sense that the English language has all but rid itself of the use of "one" as a subject, and replaced it with "you") don't want to have a bitter taste in your mouth every time you put something in your mouth that you touched, a single distillation will make short work of that. Add calcium oxide (made by heating calcium hydroxide, sold as hydrated lime, to 500C or so, or you can order it online) before distillation if you want to remove the water too.

[Edited on 1/8/17 by Melgar]


I agree with you on this: it's actually legal to remove the denaturants if you don't sell the ethanol and don't intend to use it for human consumption.

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by JJay]




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Corrosive Joeseph
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 00:34


Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N  
I want to make some herbal tinctures by adding grain alcohol with the herbal matter. The only problem is I can only get denatured alcohol (surgical spirit) and I don't want the poisonous junk that they add. I am using the tincture externally but still I don't want the additives.

Is there a simple way I can clean it up, I was thinking of putting it through a carbon water filter jug but not sure if that would do the trick or not.


Please post the msds of your product. No one can help you unless they know what you are dealing with.

This might help. Sorry, wikipedia isn't the best source, apparently.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol

At the moment, tinctures and plant extracts are 'my thing'. I would NOT use any EtOH that had previously been denatured, especially with another alcohol, They are very hard to fully seperate.

My preferred method is a barrel, two packs of turbo yeast, 20 bags of sugar, wait two weeks (and a bit more to settle), then distill 3 times and filter 10 (just like Smirnoff do with their vodka).


Now l am happy my alcohol is fit for other peolple to consume, after all, a tincture is supposed to be a medicinal product.

There are MANY threads about brewing, distilling and cleaning ETOH on this forum. Please take the time to read them. I am too lazy right now to post any links.

Hope this helps.............


/CJ





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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 02:22


The only practical schemes for removing the denaturing agents would include a distillation step.
So, unless you have a still, you are not going to succeed.
If you have a still you can start with vodka and that way you avoid the toxic additives.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 02:58


Quote:
The only practical schemes for removing the denaturing agents would include a distillation step.

Distillation won't work, I'm afraid, as denatonium too, comes over!

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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 04:02


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
The only practical schemes for removing the denaturing agents would include a distillation step.

Distillation won't work, I'm afraid, as denatonium too, comes over!


Way to go on missing the point there!
If you are going to need a still- and you are- then you might as well start with vodka which doesn't contain denatonium.

But there's another point.
"denatonium too, comes over!"
Not if you do it properly.
Denatonium is a quaternary ammonium ion and is not volatile.
You forgot to include a dephlegmator or a fractionating column in your set up.

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Corrosive Joeseph
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 04:06


Not being confrontational here -

Vodka is just too damn expensive............

I am also interested in cleaning up denatured, but l still wouldn't use it for a tincture.............

Maybe someone would post a decent (and full) procedure on the forum.........

I still only read snippets of 'reflux with NaOH' and 'distill from activated carbon'................

How much of each.............?

/CJ


Edit - Sorry, the following post was posted while l added some more with an edit


[Edited on 8-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]




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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 04:15


OK start with sugar water and yeast.
( I seem to remember someone suggesting "a barrel, two packs of turbo yeast, 20 bags of sugar, wait two weeks (and a bit more to settle), then distill 3 times and filter 10 (just like Smirnoff do with their vodka)."

The point remains- you won't get clean alcohol without a still, so start with something clean: don't start with alcohol to which someone has deliberately added something toxic and (if they did their job properly) hard to remove.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 07:21


If it involves distillation then I am going to have to forget it as its not worth me buying one and besides that frankly I'm too lazy.

What other solvent could I use, forget glycerine or honey this is for external use and I don't want anything sticky or oily.

I need a solvent in which the polar/non polar compounds of the herb will dissolve. It has to be non toxic. Small molecular mass so the ingredients can go through the skin and it needs to be fairly inexpensive....any ideas?





[Edited on 8-1-2017 by D4RR3N]
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Corrosive Joeseph
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 07:29


Laziness is really not tolerated around here...................

(facepalm)

I'm feeling generous, hopefully it helps some one else..............

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyl_sulfoxide


/CJ

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]




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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 07:51


Well if I was selling herbal tinctures then I would be more motivated but fermenting bags of sugar and triple distilling barrels of sugar alcohol is simply not worth it.

Its funny you mention that I was just looking at a bottle of DMSO I have on my shelve. The thing is it has only recently become publicly available not. For a long time it was banned and even now it is sold mostly for veterinary application. It is still banned in personal care products to my knowledge.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 08:08


the last time i saw what was in Klean Strip denatured i was surprised to find that its like 50% Methanol and only 40% ethanol and 10% some other stuff, maybe stoddard solvent. But i always thought it was like 95% ethanol and only 5% methanol. But from now on ill definitely be using the 95% alcohol from the liquor store and then drying it with molecular sieves when i need good pure Ethanol.
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 08:20




Attachment: Klean Strip MSDS.pdf (33kB)
This file has been downloaded 72 times




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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 08:59


Quote: Originally posted by D4RR3N  
If it involves distillation then I am going to have to forget it as its not worth me buying one and besides that frankly I'm too lazy.

What other solvent could I use, forget glycerine or honey this is for external use and I don't want anything sticky or oily.

I need a solvent in which the polar/non polar compounds of the herb will dissolve. It has to be non toxic. Small molecular mass so the ingredients can go through the skin and it needs to be fairly inexpensive....any ideas?

[Edited on 8-1-2017 by D4RR3N]

Water?
Seriously, if you don't want to spend either the cash or the effort on getting alcohol then why not just give up?
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 09:23


I never thought of it til now but water could be a possibility.

I guess l should have mentioned this earlier but different herbs require different alcohol/water percentages.

Depending on the type of material and whether it is fresh or dry.

Two good links below................


http://mountainroseblog.com/guide-tinctures-extracts/

https://oldwaysherbal.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/making-weight...


/CJ




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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 09:39


Your in the UK, how much is a bottle of 50> proof vodka ?

I want to make perhaps 1L of herbal tincture, it is not worth buying a still and fermenting barrels of fermented sugar.

To make a litre of herbal tincture I would need over a litre of 50> vol vodka, too expensive!

I have heard people make herbal tinctures with apple cider vinegar but I'm not sure that non polar herbal compounds would dissolve into that.

Milk might actually work since polar compounds would dissolve into the water portion whilst non polar compounds would dissolve into the lipids, problem is it spoils too fast.
I'm thinking a lipid water emulsion might work well.

I have DMSO but I dont know the reason it was banned for human use.
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Corrosive Joeseph
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 10:02


You can't buy vodka greater than 40% where l am.

Our first still cost nothing and was made from an old pressure cooker, an old beer keg with the top cut off and a length of 10mm copper pipe that was left over from plumbing in the oil tank for the central heating.

I borrowed a friends 25litre beer fermenter and brewed a batch with one pack of turbo yeast and 10 bags of white table sugar.

First time out we produced 8 and haif wine bottles of 58% 'hooch'. Thats with only one distillation. Total cost so far - 18euros

And improvement in technique has this up to around 67% first distillation and a proportional loss of yield.

Since then l have knocked up a homemade fractional distillation rig and distill 3 times to 95% and then dilute to strength with spring water. This ensures sufficient purity. There does be some nasties in there and l want it as good as can be.

Anyways, what herbs are you extracting................?

DMSO horror story............... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Ramirez

Like all chemicals the government feels it has to protect the stupid public from themselves. Pft..............


/CJ





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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 10:53


I'm not sure I want to use the DMSO, I purchased it a few years ago also with the idea of using it in external herbal tinctures. After reading what was on the bottle and the fact that it is banned in personal care products I decided not to use it.

I am making a tincture that contains a mixture of 10 common European herbs
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[*] posted on 8-1-2017 at 23:51


It's quite unusual to extract a mixture of herbs, especially that many. Are you sure you know what you are doing..........?

It makes me wonder what they are, and what exactly are you treating.

Depending on what they are, they will most likely need different percentages and different w/v ratios.

They are usually extracted separately and then blended if need be.

A good example would be 'Dormeasan Sleep' hops and valerian root sleep remedy.

According to the famous Alfred Vogel, his hops are extracted with 65% alcohol at a v/w ratio of 1:12-13.

And the valerian root is done with 58% at 1:10-11, then both extracts mixed 50/50 v/v to make the finished product.

Anyways, hope this helps.................


/CJ

Edit - I feel like i have derailed this whole topic ever so slightly. If anyone has a good procedure for cleaning denatured could they post it or u2u me.

This is whats available in my area..............

Attachment: BARTOLINE METHYLATED SPIRITS MSDS.pdf (67kB)
This file has been downloaded 64 times

Attachment: MANGERS Methylated Spirit v7 MSDS.pdf (256kB)
This file has been downloaded 88 times

Edit 2 - I am particularly interested in the Bartoline

[Edited on 9-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]

[Edited on 9-1-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]




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[*] posted on 9-1-2017 at 01:37


Quote: Originally posted by Db33  
the last time i saw what was in Klean Strip denatured i was surprised to find that its like 50% Methanol and only 40% ethanol and 10% some other stuff, maybe stoddard solvent. But i always thought it was like 95% ethanol and only 5% methanol. But from now on ill definitely be using the 95% alcohol from the liquor store and then drying it with molecular sieves when i need good pure Ethanol.


The regular Klean Strip denatured alcohol is 40% EtOH and 50% MeOH, but the Klean Strip Green denatured alcohol is 90% EtOH with the rest being water and a small amount of ethyl acetate.
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[*] posted on 9-1-2017 at 02:26


I don't know what goes around in Germany, but in the Netherlands there is a blue denatured alcohol going around called spiritus. According to the msds It has 85% ethanol, less than 0,5% methanol, some pyridine, benzyl denatonium and the blue dye. Rest is water.

The blue dye doesn't come over in distillation and pyridine and denatonium don't come over when protonated. With a 30cm vigreux column and a bit of sulfuric acid I got ethanol with only a bit of methanol and water. If irritation is not of concern, as ethanol is irritant itself, less than 1% methanol shouldn't be a problem as it doesn't get absorpted through the skin anyway.

If methanol is really a problem just throw out the first 50% of the distillate after the column. As a litre of this stuff goes for around 2 euro you are only throwing away heat.

A distillation set is a good investment anyway which can give you years and years of experimenting fun. Otherwise go for cooking pots and copper tubing, a copper tube makes a fine column as well

[Edited on 9-1-2017 by Tsjerk]
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[*] posted on 9-1-2017 at 02:50


Thanks Tsjerk.

Some more information for anyone interestred..................

Taken from this page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol (and gives a reference)

'The European Union agreed in February 2013 to the mutual procedures for the complete denaturing of alcohol

Per hectolitre (100L) of absolute ethanol: 3 litres of isopropyl alcohol, 3 litres of methyl ethyl ketone and 1 gram denatonium benzoate'.


/CJ




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