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Author: Subject: Prepublication section, why not make a amateur-scientific journal ?
Fulmen
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 01:33


I really don't see the point. The value of peer review depends on the credibility of the journal (and peers), a SM journal would have none.



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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 02:09


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
I really don't see the point. The value of peer review depends on the credibility of the journal (and peers), a SM journal would have none.


Hey, at least it'd have credibility to other SM members :)

Honestly, some decent articles that exists on prepub would be easily picked up and cited by actual researchers if the writing was done a little better and was on a journal.
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 02:10


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
I really don't see the point. The value of peer review depends on the credibility of the journal (and peers), a SM journal would have none.


i know what you mean, we are all amateurs, a few of us are professionals sure but the majority are normal people with this hobby, we don't have any real power or recognition in any academic or professional society, BUT, every time i search anything chemistry related on the web SM is in the results. many people read this forum even if they are not active as a registered member. so we gained "power and recognition" from every random guy who read this forum in the last 15 years, INTERNET POWER C:





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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 02:31


I like this idea. What about advertisements? Included in a few pages could be bits about SM members YouTube channels or Ebay stores.




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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 02:45


I really love this idea. If somebody is going to do it for real I am totally in, just contact me through U2U. As I am a master of inorganic chemistry I can do peer reviewing of articles from this field.

Also the title ZTS16 suggested sounds good to me.

P.S.: It is not typical to repeat synthesis so there is no need to for us as well.




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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 05:16


Quote: Originally posted by DubaiAmateurRocketry  

Honestly, some decent articles that exists on prepub would be easily picked up and cited by actual researchers if the writing was done a little better and was on a journal.


I can confirm this; when I was discussing this forum with a post-doc friend of mine who is a "post doctoral research associate" mentioned that he has used procedures posted on here from time to time. It's unlikely he'll be the only one, and if a journal was created, that could enable citation of the work done here and raise the forum's profile still further.
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 06:49


If there aren't any objections, I would be happy to volunteer myself as chief editor for the journal, which I would intend to call the Journal of Independent Chemistry. Although I am only a student, I have read many academic journal articles, and I am very particular about styling and formatting. I would ensure that any article or letter accepted for publication meet criteria as rigorous as any legitimate journal, as far as the technical details go.



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Fulmen
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 09:45


In many ways a forum works like an interactive peer review, although some threads can kick up a lot of noise. A simple system for weeding out stray comments, OT chitchat and stupid questions would suffice IMHO. Perhaps a moderated forum where posts must be approved before they become visible?



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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 10:29


Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
In many ways a forum works like an interactive peer review, although some threads can kick up a lot of noise. A simple system for weeding out stray comments, OT chitchat and stupid questions would suffice IMHO. Perhaps a moderated forum where posts must be approved before they become visible?
From a moderator's perspective that sounds like even more work for us, and it puts the onus of deciding what is useful feedback on the moderators rather than having a few knowledgeable, trustworthy members volunteer to review articles in particular areas. Besides, having our procedures typed up in the style of an academic journal rather than remaining in forum threads will look a lot more professional, and may encourage people to bring their threads out of Prepublication and the other subfora.



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clearly_not_atara
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 11:24


After some reconsideration, while I'm not sure that we're going to achieve the typical academic standard, I'm interested in supporting this project. I think that at the very least we could:

* standardize typesetting of the papers to make them more readable

* organize them somehow so that they can be cited

* (hopefully) include some proper abstracts, bibliographies and comparisons to other work (boring, but useful)

If Texium is okay with it, I would be happy to serve on the editorial board. Nonetheless, I prefer to remain pseudonymous at this time.

Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen  
In many ways a forum works like an interactive peer review, although some threads can kick up a lot of noise. A simple system for weeding out stray comments, OT chitchat and stupid questions would suffice IMHO. Perhaps a moderated forum where posts must be approved before they become visible?

Nah, it's better to request comments from reviewers, because it makes it much easier to have the short back-and-forth that usually leads to revisions and improvements in the manuscript before it's published. Most submissions to the journals of the company that my employer contracts with will be sent to one or two rounds of revision based on reviewer comments, which the reviewers then re-evaluate, etc.


[Edited on 6-6-2018 by clearly_not_atara]




[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 11:37




Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
While your journal example is nice and flashy looking, it doesn't really do anything except reformat the thread into something journal-shaped. The language used, the imperative tone, the lack of properly cited references (a URL alone does not cut it), and the use of pictures delegitimize it.


oh of course, I think for our jounral, the use of pictures would be fine, publishing them as supplementary data might be a solution for "pictures that would have make the article less legit". But even as supplementary data we dont want it to look too amateur, we could ask submissions to take pictures in a clean background, as in not a home as the background.

Also, the article which I made an example typeset of, was a straight copy-paste of one of the articles currently in pre-publication. When members/others submit, the journal will for sure ask them to provide a better quality writing/references/etc.

Quote: Originally posted by Texium (zts16)  
If there aren't any objections, I would be happy to volunteer myself as chief editor for the journal, which I would intend to call the Journal of Independent Chemistry. Although I am only a student, I have read many academic journal articles, and I am very particular about styling and formatting. I would ensure that any article or letter accepted for publication meet criteria as rigorous as any legitimate journal, as far as the technical details go.


I could volunteer as one of the reviewers as I have read many and published a few in the past. I can review topics that include materials that are hazardous, combustible, rocketry-related, propulsion-related, and energetic materials. While I am also a expert in GABA receptors-related neuroscience, I dont think thats relevant here.

Some of my past publications:

2014 Dissolving Lithium Perchlorate in Prepolymers for Easier and Cheaper Propellant Manufacture; 3(1): 1-5
doi:10.5923/j.aerospace.20140301.01


2018 Valium without dependence? Individual GABAA receptor subtype contribution toward benzodiazepine addiction, tolerance, and therapeutic effects Volume 2018:14 Pages 1351—1361
doi:10.2147/NDT.S164307 (PubMed Index In progress)

More currently in pre-press.




[Edited on 6-6-2018 by DubaiAmateurRocketry]
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 11:54


I don't think I like the Journal of Independent Chemistry title, because while the adjective "independent" is a sonorous euphemism for "amateur", it is still obviously a euphemism for "amateur". Instead, I think the title should elide any description of the researchers and focus on the research. Some ideas:

  • Journal of Parsimonious Chemical Procedures

  • Acta Chemica Parca (Latin, means "Journal of Cheap Chemistry")

  • Quotidian Methods in Chemistry

  • Tetrahedron Letters


[Edited on 7-6-2018 by clearly_not_atara]




[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 12:09


I dont think everyone will agree on a "journal name" The better ones I have heard are

- J Indep Chem
- Acta Chem Parce

from zts, atara respectively, again I think something simple with ScienceMadness in the title will also sound good,since its a journal of the forum itself.

eg:
J SM Chem.
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 15:26


I like Texium's tagline below the title: "Presented by sciencemadness.org". I think that works well.

Of the suggestions made so far, I like Acta Chemica Parce. I think that is a nifty way pf pitching to high standards, low cost, amateur but not inferior.

If this goes ahead, I will definitely read it. I don't spend enough time in prepub -- I sometimes forget that it is there. I think that taking the best of prepub and presenting it properly in a periodical will be a great step forward. I'm not going to be much of a contributor though.




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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 16:34


Haha, I hadn't thought people would prefer the Latin name.
I got the attention of someone who knows more Latin than I do, and I need to correct a vowel: it should be Acta Chemica Parca, not Parce, because parcus is using an adjective declension rather than an adverb. See:

https://www.reddit.com/r/latin/comments/8p5luy/another_trans...

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by clearly_not_atara]




[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 19:16


Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
Haha, I hadn't thought people would prefer the Latin name.
I got the attention of someone who knows more Latin than I do, and I need to correct a vowel: it should be Acta Chemica Parca, not Parce, because parcus is using an adjective declension rather than an adverb. See:

https://www.reddit.com/r/latin/comments/8p5luy/another_trans...

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by clearly_not_atara]
Ita vero! I actually took four years of Latin in high school.

Not sure how I feel about that title. I like the tongue-in-cheek nature of it, but I think I'd prefer Acta Chemica Libera, which is equally catchy and would be a more literal translation of Journal of Independent Chemistry.

Also LOL at your mention of Tetrahedron Letters

[Edited on 6-7-2018 by Texium (zts16)]




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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 22:22


I like "Journal of Chemical Procedures", as that is what it would be, and I wouldn't be ashamed to cite a Journal named like that (as long as the procedures are qualitative, which I'm sure they will be).

A bit like this, people use this website to cite in their papers al the time; Bio-protocols

I don't like the Latin name, just because I don't know any Latin... The language of the journal will be English, so I think an English name would fit.

A citation to Bio-protocols would look like this;
Bach, J. N. and Bramkamp, M. (2014). Isolation of the Secretome from Bacillus subtilis. Bio-protocol 4(2): e1026. DOI: 10.21769/BioProtoc.1026.

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by Tsjerk]

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by Tsjerk]
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 23:37


Hmm.. what if we start getting actual researchers to submit? hehe. I know entire departments of students who want to publish things (their college thesis on chemistry, etc.) thats somewhere that just lies under the quality of journals. so yah, I am really not afraid of not enough submissions.

Secondl, they sounds like a good name too, again, there's many good names that has been proposed.

Acta Chemi Libera
J Chem Procedures
J Indep Chem

I do agree that the name of the journal should not be something anyone would be ashamed to cite.
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[*] posted on 6-6-2018 at 23:45


It seems that the choice of the title will be hard one. I suggest to make a list and then vote. :)



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[*] posted on 7-6-2018 at 00:25


Quote: Originally posted by Hegi  
It seems that the choice of the title will be hard one. I suggest to make a list and then vote. :)


Great idea. Let's see if there are a couple more suggestions before doing that.

Are we growing a consensus of how this thing will work?. Then we can organise the W's - who will do what by when.




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[*] posted on 7-6-2018 at 01:19


Great idea, though how many sciencemadness publications would be truly undescribed, unpublished and novel syntheses?

(Ducks for cover...)

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 7-6-2018 at 02:49


Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
Great idea, though how many sciencemadness publications would be truly undescribed, unpublished and novel syntheses?

(Ducks for cover...)

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by nitro-genes]


Thanks for saying that.- I am not sure the point of a journal that "publishes" stuff that is essentially just someone else's work.

And I use the quotation marks because what is the difference really between having it published as it is on the SM board and putting the work in a nice format and into a PDF that is still on the sciencemadness board- surely it is just a superficial difference? its the same information just in a document? what is the point?

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by HeYBrO]
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[*] posted on 7-6-2018 at 03:12


Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
Great idea, though how many sciencemadness publications would be truly undescribed, unpublished and novel syntheses?

(Ducks for cover...)

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by nitro-genes]


Thanks for saying that.- I am not sure the point of a journal that "publishes" stuff that is essentially just someone else's work.

And I use the quotation marks because what is the difference really between having it published as it is on the SM board and putting the work in a nice format and into a PDF that is still on the sciencemadness board- surely it is just a superficial difference? its the same information just in a document? what is the point?

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by HeYBrO]


The point is condensation of the information into a consistent format that can be cited or referred to with greater ease than the threads on this forum. Certainly in prepublications the material is fairly well organised, but there is a lot of "publishable" material scattered throughout the forum which would be worth pulling together. (For example the potassium sticky thread. Loads of material and information, but scattered throughout and difficult to quickly learn more than just what to do). Very occasionally, yes, there will be brand-new stuff discovered by SM members, and yes, most of it will be published before. I feel it is very worthwhile concentrating the information.
The other thing is that it may well encourage more of the Practical Chemistry that aga and co. are so keen to see more of on here, as well as potential collaborations.

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by 12thealchemist]
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[*] posted on 7-6-2018 at 03:19


It would be best if we used a google document to edit and format everything. Then multiple users could work on it as the same time. I did something similar with my List of Chemical Substances Prepared by SM Users

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AoI2VA5L4bmFw2HwXS2OVYTV...




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[*] posted on 7-6-2018 at 03:26


Quote: Originally posted by 12thealchemist  
Quote: Originally posted by HeYBrO  
Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
Great idea, though how many sciencemadness publications would be truly undescribed, unpublished and novel syntheses?

(Ducks for cover...)

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by nitro-genes]


Thanks for saying that.- I am not sure the point of a journal that "publishes" stuff that is essentially just someone else's work.

And I use the quotation marks because what is the difference really between having it published as it is on the SM board and putting the work in a nice format and into a PDF that is still on the sciencemadness board- surely it is just a superficial difference? its the same information just in a document? what is the point?

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by HeYBrO]


The point is condensation of the information into a consistent format that can be cited or referred to with greater ease than the threads on this forum. Certainly in prepublications the material is fairly well organised, but there is a lot of "publishable" material scattered throughout the forum which would be worth pulling together. Very occasionally, yes, there will be brand-new stuff discovered by SM members, and yes, most of it will be published before. I feel it is very worthwhile concentrating the information.
The other thing is that it may well encourage more of the Practical Chemistry that aga and co. are so keen to see more of on here, as well as potential collaborations.



People have been citing other threads for 15 years on this forum though and it works perfectly fine IMO... As for potential collaborations what are you referring to? Academics from institutions with us?? they wouldn't want it published here, they would want it published in a reputable journal. If you want to condense informations you should look at the Topical Compendium, Mk. II thread (there are a few attempts at these sort of things IIRC)

EDIT: texium made one in the wiki http://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Topical_Compe...

[Edited on 7-6-2018 by HeYBrO]
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