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Author: Subject: Science in danger - epa ordered to take down climate change page
elementcollector1
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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 11:54


Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
Many of my former military acquaintances are going to be protesting as well. I will not be attending the paris accord protest but I will protest for science.


Why don't you have a symposium or a congress or something? Scientists like those.

[Edited on 25-1-2017 by JJay]


Are you serious? This is just being petty. We both know you're more mature than this.




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 11:57


Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
Many of my former military acquaintances are going to be protesting as well. I will not be attending the paris accord protest but I will protest for science.


Why don't you have a symposium or a congress or something? Scientists like those.

[Edited on 25-1-2017 by JJay]


Are you serious? This is just being petty. We both know you're more mature than this.


Let me make sure I understand you correctly: You think I'm being petty and immature by suggesting you have a symposium instead of a protest.




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:01


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  

Interestingly, China is a now major sponsor of environmental scientific research likely as a consequence of decades of reliant on dirty fossil fuels contributing to significant air pollution. Here is a recent piece, to quote:

"As 2016 gave way to 2017, residents of Beijing, Tianjin, and many other northern Chinese cities suffered through the longest stretch of stifling air pollution ever recorded in the country. They choked through eight continuous days of thick, light-blocking haze, starting Dec. 30, 2016. This stretch of bad air began only a week after people in 70 northern Chinese cities were enveloped by similar days of haze..."



As smart as we think we are we have to get to this point before doing anything about it.

[Edited on 25-1-2017 by Magpie]


I've read stories about how power plants used to blacken towns with soot in the U.S. in the early 1900s. Automobiles have definitely drawn a lot of regulation.




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:03


Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Ok, so you're a protester too. Anyone else?


I didn't realize we were allowed to label and invalidate other members' opinions on this topic because we don't like their lifestyles or political principles.

Please take your spam elsewhere. If you don't want to talk about this topic and how it relates to the scientific community, you don't have to comment.
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elementcollector1
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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:09


Not quite. Allow me to demonstrate why I think you're being immature:

Quote:
Why don't you have a symposium or a congress or something?


This part of the statement was acceptable, if a bit oblivious. The appropriate counterargument would be that symposiums and congresses do not accomplish change with the same speed and efficacy that protesting does.

Quote:
Scientists like those.


This is blatantly sarcastic and petty in nature, as well as completely unnecessary to the rest of the statement. It gives the reader a sense that you don't actually care about providing a valid counterargument so much as you care about dismissing opposing points of view, an assertion of mine which you have repeatedly shown evidence of throughout this thread. Protesters? Crazy. Climate change? Also crazy.

I hope you enjoyed this lesson in basic subtext, and I look forward to seeing its use in future posts of yours.




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:16


Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Not quite. Allow me to demonstrate why I think you're being immature:

Quote:
Why don't you have a symposium or a congress or something?


This part of the statement was acceptable, if a bit oblivious. The appropriate counterargument would be that symposiums and congresses do not accomplish change with the same speed and efficacy that protesting does.

Quote:
Scientists like those.


This is blatantly sarcastic and petty in nature, as well as completely unnecessary to the rest of the statement. It gives the reader a sense that you don't actually care about providing a valid counterargument so much as you care about dismissing opposing points of view, an assertion of mine which you have repeatedly shown evidence of throughout this thread. Protesters? Crazy. Climate change? Also crazy.

I hope you enjoyed this lesson in basic subtext, and I look forward to seeing its use in future posts of yours.


Not to beat a dead horse, but you just don't get it. Scientists do like symposiums.




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elementcollector1
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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:18


Not to beat a dead horse, but neither do you. Scientists also like publishing papers, doing research, and having grant funding, none of which are going to continue if we don't do something about it.



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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:19


I think the solution is obvious?



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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:20


'Protests' and other public displays are pretty much pointless.

They only help to satisfy the egos of those doing the Protesting, dissipating their energies.

Anyone participating will always have the excuse (for not doing anything else) "at least i tried to do something" no matter how much their trivial efforts were ignored.

This is why marches and protests are allowed.

Anyone Serious about making any kind of Political change will devote the time, effort and money to getting 'inside' the system they want to change, as that is the best place to change it from.

e.g. You become President.

This tends not to happen much as it requires long term concentration and effort, whereas shouting a lot is much quicker, easier, and an option available to everyone.

Marching around with banners, shouting slogans, getting into fights etc is great fun, but achieves nothing of any practical use.




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:21


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
'Protests' and other public displays are pretty much pointless.

They only help to satisfy the egos of those doing the Protesting, dissipating their energies.

Anyone participating will always have the excuse (for not doing anything else) "at least i tried to do something" no matter how much their trivial efforts were ignored.

This is why marches and protests are allowed.

Anyone Serious about making any kind of Political change will devote the time, effort and money to getting 'inside' the system they want to change, as that is the best place to change it from.

e.g. You become President.

This tends not to happen much as it requires long term concentration and effort, whereas shouting a lot is much quicker, easier, and an option available to everyone.

Marching around with banners, shouting slogans, getting into fights etc is great fun, but achieves nothing of any practical use.


Except... it has? Historically? Every single time? Please provide evidence for this claim of yours about 'getting inside the system'. I've yet to hear about people who've done that, but I've heard plenty about Martin Luther King, George Washington, Malcom X, Rosa Parks, and hundreds and hundreds of others who didn't 'get inside the system' to win.




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:27


Trump ?

Edit:

Not being American i can't focus on US-only events.

Tiananmen Square rings a bell.

Will need some research time to find all the thousands of failed US protests, as 'Every-single-time' sounds unlikely.

If there are some facts, i will gladly be corrected on that.

[Edited on 25-1-2017 by aga]




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:28


Trump 'got inside the system' because he appealed to the common masses, who were, in a sense, 'protesting' against PC culture. This is a major victory for his side, but a rare one - nobody seriously expected a man so obviously unqualified to win the Presidency. He's the exception, not the rule.

EDIT: Alright, granted 'every single time' is an exaggeration. How about this: Every time a major victory was won in human rights, it was done so through protesting. Black and female suffrage, the abolition of slavery, same-sex marriage, freedom of speech/arms/etc. all support this historically.

[Edited on 1-25-2017 by elementcollector1]




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:45




Popcorn.jpg - 5kB




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:49


This thread is not going to Detritus because although it is political in nature, it is discussing a topic that directly pertains to science. All I ask is that if you wish to continue discussing the philosophy of protesting in general, from this point on, move it to U2U, because it's only getting in the way here. This post was going to be about 4 times longer but I decided not to add anymore fuel to the fire.



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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 12:57


In this case, there is not time to 'get inside the system'.
There are plenty of people 'inside the system', that are
against the elimination of science. Protests are designed
to sway the 'insiders' that don't care one way or the other
to support a cause. Organized protests have achieved a
lot of victories. They won't win every fight but saying
they don't work at all is obviously untrue. Absolutes
are almost never true unless they involve laws of nature.

But lets get this back on track.
This thread was supposed to be informative in nature
not an argument about climate change or rather
protesting is effective. Talking to a congress person
or senator is obviously more effective. But in this
case both of my senators and my congress woman
are already on the science side.

The EPA and HHS gag orders have not been lifted just
the USDA. An unknown number of other agencies are
also impacted.
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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 13:21


macckone, do you know what happened to the Facebook page? One of the links no longer works, and the other says that the protest has been canceled.

Edit: all off-topic posts will be swiftly pruned.

[Edited on 1-25-2017 by zts16]




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 13:40


Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Edit: all off-topic posts will be swiftly pruned.

The topic is Political.




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 13:59


Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Edit: all off-topic posts will be swiftly pruned.

The topic is Political.
The topic pertains directly to science. You have no horse in this race aga, so if you're not going to be supportive, you can leave.



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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 14:00


Ok.



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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 14:47


This is the latest I have, this is being organized by grad
students so it is a little chaotic:

There is more discussion going on about the date.
The March 4th date was cancelled but may be revived.

There is a closed facebook page and a public:
https://www.facebook.com/marchforscience

There is a twitter account providing updates.
https://twitter.com/ScienceMarchDC

As well as a subreddit thread.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MarchForScience/

Latest news article:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/316023-scientists-are-pl...
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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 15:32


Great, all of those links are very helpful. I was also able to find a group that is trying to form a sister march in Austin, so I'm getting involved with that. More than 100 members currently and it was just created an hour ago. I hope to see it keep growing at a faster rate in the coming weeks and not burn out.



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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 15:46


Quote: Originally posted by zts16  
Great, all of those links are very helpful. I was also able to find a group that is trying to form a sister march in Austin, so I'm getting involved with that. More than 100 members currently and it was just created an hour ago. I hope to see it keep growing at a faster rate in the coming weeks and not burn out.


I see there's not one in my city... yet.. :D

I'm not incredibly sure about the national organizers' agenda, but I wouldn't mind having a nice little parade for science.


[Edited on 26-1-2017 by JJay]




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 16:22


Ironically (in this context), there is a bit of a science to staging an effective protest. Some peaceful protests achieve their goals. Some do not. (And the same can be said for non-peaceful protests.) This is something that came up in the long-detritussed RTBA thread. There have been a number of published studies on effecting change and I seem to recall a TED talk a couple of years ago.

Going from recollection, an effective protest captures the public imagination in a particular way. There is an identifiable personality that people rally behind and that person comes across with charisma. There is a simple and clearly articulated goal; often with a slogan or symbol. There is a 2% public engagement threshold. And probably other factors as well. Disappointingly, truth and justice seldom come into it. (For example the extremely powerful public rallies in pre-WWII Germany.)

Change does come through other mechanisms as well as protests.

The bottom line is that if you really want to institute change in society, it pays to be a bit strategic. I'll reserve judgement on the probable efficacy of a protest in this case but I do believe the cause is worthwhile.
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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 18:45


Taxpayer perspective: According to the EPA's website, the agency's yearly budget is around eight billion dollars. I can't even imagine all the squandering that takes place with such a big chunk of change. Eight bills will grease a LOT of political skids. Just a hunch, most proponents of protests and reversing the new administration's clamp-downs are probably not taxpayers (yet?).

Science enthusiast perspective: Why not redirect the hots for protesting energy toward petitioning the new administration to relax some of the regulatory mayhem that makes it difficult to be an amateur chemist at times?

Citizen perspective: The proposed protests may actually raise more public awareness of the mess that is the EPA as well as other agencies. Science and politics should be immiscible by their very nature lest one should corrupt the other.

I don't mean to come off as condescending or abrasive. When I was a kid, I remember watching on TV what seemed to be everyone protesting everything in Mexico(!). Things don't look so good over there today.




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[*] posted on 25-1-2017 at 18:55


Hey, I'm just saying - if the EPA wants to pay my way to a symposium, they can have a parade in my city, no problem. I won't obstruct it or anything.

No one is suggesting that the EPA should be utterly, completely and permanently abolished, have its doors shuttered, and have its proponents cast out of the scientific community in disgrace as frauds and charlatans. Not in my city, anyway.





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