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Author: Subject: Alternatives to Nitrogen.
clearly_not_atara
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[*] posted on 15-2-2017 at 15:15


Is helium available near you? It's much more common than nitrogen at the consumer level since it's used to fill balloons; try party stores. Definitely not cheap, though.

You can use p-aminophenol instead of sulfamic acid to generate nitrogen. P-aminophenol is notable because it can be formed by hydrolysing paracetamol, which I'm certain that you have access to. You do still need NaNO2 though.

paracetamol + NaOH >> p-aminophenol + NaOAc

p-aminophenol + NaNO2 [pH 7] >> p-hydroxybenzenediazonium >> hydroquinone + nitrogen

Note that the p-hydroxybenzenediazonium salt is light-sensitive and should not be isolated or concentrated too much in solution as violent decomposition is a risk. However I think it is less likely to kill you than H2.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 15-2-2017 at 18:26


At clearly_not_atara,
It will not work the way you think it will...
Para-amino-phenol when diazotized will form a relatively stable diazo-oxide...see the vast DDNP tread into the energetic section and specifically iso-picramic acid diazotation




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[*] posted on 15-2-2017 at 18:44


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Liquid to liquid...then simply avoid any gas....only use liquid boiled water for example (almost O2 and N2 free...and sterilized)...use a seringe filled with that water to displace the fluid in front of it to the other location and on the other side use another empty seringe and pump the liquid...simple liquid transfert.

[Edited on 15-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]


Sorry I was totally unclear in what I was saying. I need a head space of around 25%, but I can start with a completely filled container and push the liquid out. That would leave me with a space at the top filled with my non oxygen gas.

it is done now..........Wine shop Argon, and one 250ml flask with Hydrogen at the top.

This gives me a few weeks to revisit Nitrogen, if the cultures take. Next step is the one I am reading up on now, how to isolate into single cultures.

From the papers I read it sounds like a hypo pushed into the medium (test tube agar). A sealed glove box would be very handy, but easier said than done.

I think I will have to try some of the other methods mentioned though, some interesting ideas for making Nitrogen.

Shame about the paracetamol, I think they might allow you a couple of tablets of that in the UK!

I kid you not though, Ebay is the aspirin and paracetamol place, shops here are restricted to something like 16 tablets at a time! plus you have to be 18 (16 by law, but shops want over 18 ID).

They blame the EU laws, but here in the UK we seem to enforce the EU laws to the letter. I thought coming out of the EU (if it happens), would solve the problem, but I think we are going to keep all the existing laws.

Well except the ones that help people I guess. Sorry if thats a bit political, I feel a bit cheated when I read what some of you can get in shops easily.

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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 00:48


anaerobes, slaughterhouse, cattle... smells like anthrax to me, or maybe c.botx?
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 03:28


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  


Shame about the paracetamol, I think they might allow you a couple of tablets of that in the UK!

I kid you not though, Ebay is the aspirin and paracetamol place, shops here are restricted to something like 16 tablets at a time! plus you have to be 18 (16 by law, but shops want over 18 ID).

They blame the EU laws, but here in the UK we seem to enforce the EU laws to the letter. I thought coming out of the EU (if it happens), would solve the problem, but I think we are going to keep all the existing laws.

Well except the ones that help people I guess. Sorry if thats a bit political, I feel a bit cheated when I read what some of you can get in shops easily.


Don't tell lies or propagate stupid rumors...it has nothing to do with EU...and must be only UK related...

Here in Belgium center of the EU, you can buy in pharmacy-shop paracetamol or aspirin (last week I bought one box of 120*1g paracetamol pills at 11,5€ (120g for 11,5€ that is fair) and 40*0,5g pills of Acetyl salycilic acid (aspirin) thus 20g for about the same price)...no ID card requested.

I needed this to start experimenting with iso-DDNP and picric acid to make picramic acid and normal DDNP.I want to work on related explosive diazo-oxides and nitranilic acid....I will try to get some unmade to date bis-diazo-dinitro-phenoxide.
Only study...no terrorist act.

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 04:58


He's not lying about the availability - you can't buy more than 2 packs of pain killer at the CO-OP. I do not know if it is the law or if it is just their policy. He say's that 'they' told him it was the EU law - maybe 'they' were wrong, idk, I'd have to look it up, but being honest I am not too worried about it. There is nothing to stop you buying 2 packs and then going back 5 mins later for more.



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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 05:12


Quote: Originally posted by Cezium  
anaerobes, slaughterhouse, cattle... smells like anthrax to me, or maybe c.botx?


What are you talking about? Any cattle you would extract anthracis from would be a heap of pussing dead flesh. Ever seen an anthrax infection? Not very pleasant. For this species you look in grasslands, not in cattle.

Clostridium botulinum also makes no sense, as cattle infected with it won't make its way to the slaughterhouse. I think it was pretty clear from the start the OP is talking about methanogens.

Please don't accuse people of growing bio-weapons if you don't know what you're talking about.

Edit: and since when is B. anthracis anaerobe?

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by Tsjerk]
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 05:46


Such hate from ein deutschman. I haven't accuse anyone, just saying what these words evoke to me. I am sure that you can get both spores in cattle slaughterhouse. Havent seen anthrax infection in vivo, just held petri dish once.

facultative anaerob

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by Cezium]
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 07:37


There you go
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1325.aspx?categoryid=73&subc...

16 pain killers from a supermarket and 32 if you buy from a chemist! Dr P apparently is actually law!

And post 2 I would have thought made it clear what I was doing!

" Just as a side note.................

I had always Assumed that cows fart methane, so obvious place to looks for bugs is cow shit. Months of failure looking for the bug I wanted made me turn to vet books, as I am sure you lot know cows actually belch more Methane than they fart.

Significance? Well the bug I was after is at the opposite end, so its taken ages to get a culture that wasnt dead.
And no this isnt actually about making Methane, its about a particular bug thats all (One i cant spell!)."

Its a simple methane experiment, based on the fact I found out cows burp more methane than they fart. So the microbes are a bit different in the first two stomachs........No point repeating the thread. I havnt spread any misinformation, the restriction of most chemicals are EU directives, the UK is apparently the only place that actually applies the laws though.

So paracetamol being a chemical....makes sense to me to be a EU rule, Aga can buy most chems in a flower shop, but he is in the EU. As I said its mainly the anal UK that takes it to extremes.


Oh and in case someone else needs the info..... I found another source of Nitrogen, Some tyre places will fill a inner tube for you, not too sure why tire places have Nitrogen, but the tyre place near to us has it. The guy did a kids swimming ring for me free.

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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 07:53


Cheers Nemo.

Seems you are right - they ignore these laws in Brussels then? lol - we enforce every one... which is probably why people voted Brexit. I personally voted to remain, but the attitude of giving people a bollocking everytime they complain about an over enforced law or complain about something is probably what alienates them and forces them to ignore the positives too. I have a few issues with some of the EU laws... and if I bring them up in front of anyone who voted to remain they start shouting, but I voted to stay all the same and would do again. See how you get accused of lying and spreading rumors for stating something that is just simply true. No wonder people want away from that school teacher style oppression. Shame it lead the ignorant masses into revolt.






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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 08:45


I assumed the sale of paracetamol was regulated by the EU. Apparently a false assumption probably caused by my personal experiences in France and the UK.

See https://occup-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12995-...

“Accessibility of the pharmaceuticals paracetamol however is not regulated by European law but by national law”

“Various EU countries permit prescription-free sales of paracetamol in pharmacies and non-pharmacy stores. In Sweden paracetamol 500 mg may be sold in both pharmacies and non-pharmacies in a maximum pack size of 20 units. In the United Kingdom (UK) paracetamol 500 mg is listed in the general sales list with a maximum pack size of 30 effervescent tablets or 16 tablets. In Ireland paracetamol 500 mg may be sold in a maximum pack size of 12 units in a non-pharmacy. In the Netherlands paracetamol 500 mg is legal to be sold in a maximum pack size of 50 units in a drug store and with a maximum of 20 units in any other non-pharmacy. Several countries in the European Union are permitted to offer paracetamol prescription-free in pharmacies and non-pharmacy stores without legal guidance on the storage position within the store.”

Gone are the days when you could buy a bottle of 250 paracetamol BP tablets for a about a couple of pounds.
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 09:07


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
There you go
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1325.aspx?categoryid=73&subc...



I havnt spread any misinformation, the restriction of most chemicals are EU directives, the UK is apparently the only place that actually applies the laws though.

So paracetamol being a chemical....makes sense to me to be a EU rule, Aga can buy most chems in a flower shop, but he is in the EU. As I said its mainly the anal UK that takes it to extremes.




Do I get you right saying the paracetamol restrictions are EU and the UK enforcing those regulations? I think your link makes it quite obviously clear this is a UK law as the EU didn't exist in 1968.
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 10:48


Below is the most recent UK law required to comply with EU law on controlled and reportable chemicals. Does not cover drugs like paracetamol.

I have only quoted the explosive precursors and poisons checkout the link for the others.

From https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

"1.1 Regulated substances and concentration thresholds

Explosives precursors:

hydrogen peroxide:12% w/w
nitromethane: 30% w/w
nitric acid: 3% w/w
sodium chlorate: 40% w/w
potassium chlorate: 40% w/w
sodium perchlorate: 40% w/w
potassium perchlorate: 40% w/w

Poisons:

Aluminium phosphide
Arsenic and its compounds (other than calcium arsenites, copper acetoarsenite, copper arsenates, copper arsenites, lead arsenates)
Barium salts (other than barium sulphate, barium carbonate and barium silicofluoride)
Bromomethane
Chloropicrin
Fluoroacetic acid, its salts and fluoroacetamide
Hydrogen cyanide and metal cyanides (other than ferrocyanides and ferricyanides)
Lead acetates and compounds of lead with acids from fixed oils
Magnesium phosphide
Mercury and its compounds (including: nitrates of mercury; oxides of mercury; mercuric cyanide oxides; mercuric thiocyanate; ammonium mercuric chlorides; potassium mercuric iodides; organic compounds of mercury which contain a methyl group directly linked to the mercury atom)
Oxalic acid: 10% w/w
Phenols (phenol; phenolic isomers of the following: cresols, xylenols, monoethylphenols); compounds of phenols with a metal, 60% w/w of phenols or, for compounds of phenols with a metal, the equivalent of 60% w/w of phenols
Phosphorus yellow
Strychnine and its salts and its quaternary compounds
Thallium and its salts"


[Edited on 16-2-2017 by wg48]
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 11:53


My god, they're restricting phenol (all phenols!?) and... anything greater than 10% oxalic acid? On what grounds?
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 13:32


Quote: Originally posted by Amos  
My god, they're restricting phenol (all phenols!?) and... anything greater than 10% oxalic acid? On what grounds?


I guess the phenols are environmentally problematic. They where banned at least for home use years ago in wood preservatives (UK).

I do wonder why oxalic acid.

Look at the other lists ammonia, potassium and sodium hydroxide phosphoric acid !!!

Read the link for the fine details.

[Edited on 16-2-2017 by wg48]
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 17:51


Ok its a UK law, It dosnt matter much to me who made the law. Even in the Uk we dont have parity of law within the UK, some things legal in England and Wales are not legal in Scotland.

It isnt a Joke any more, getting it wrong has serious consequences. ALL meta data is kept in the UK, if you are suspected of anything they can remotely say is terror linked, then you in a different ball game. I dont know all the rules, so some of the following might be inaccurate in some details.

But here if your arrested under suspicion of a terror related charge (say some banned chemical that can go bang), I could be hauled off without the right to see anyone (including a solicitor) for several weeks. They dont even have to inform anyone they have me.

I would hope thats reserved for the extreme end of things, but the little I know on the subject seems to imply it covers any terror related suspicion. OK I was wrong about paracetamol being a EU rule, but it hardly matters to me who made the rule.

I look at America and see you complain about the glassware laws, here you make a bang in your garden and it often dosnt end well. This isnt supposed to be a political thread, I only made the point about paracetamol because the assumption is everything is easy to get here. And yes to some extent I can get 200 paracetamol, but equallu if I was old enough to drive, I could also drive drunk.

The point being I try and avoid serious trouble. Oxalic Acid I might have, and in England your likely to get told off, here in Scotland it isnt so forgiving. You cant even have a single Beer here and drive any more........
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 18:05


Why not simply buy canned argon they sell for preserving wine and paints? In the US here they sell one called "Bloxygen" and another called "Private Reserve". Both are basically just canned argon, usually with a small balance of Nitrogen designed to blanket the wine or paint, and create an barrier from oxidation.
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[*] posted on 16-2-2017 at 18:11


Quote: Originally posted by BobD1001  
Why not simply buy canned argon they sell for preserving wine and paints? In the US here they sell one called "Bloxygen" and another called "Private Reserve". Both are basically just canned argon, usually with a small balance of Nitrogen designed to blanket the wine or paint, and create an barrier from oxidation.


Sorry that bit got buried :D, I did say above I got some argon from the wine making shop.

But I also mentioned wanting to try out some of the other ways at some point (purely for fun). I went off topic a bit when paracetamol was mentioned.
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[*] posted on 17-2-2017 at 17:28


@NEMO: damn that sucks, but I don't see anything on there restricting the freedom of a consumer to stockpile paracetamol. At some point you have to bite the bullet and pay cash at a few different stores to get what you need... no, it's not legal, but neither is ~anything requiring an inert atmosphere and done without a license

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
At clearly_not_atara,
It will not work the way you think it will...
Para-amino-phenol when diazotized will form a relatively stable diazo-oxide...see the vast DDNP tread into the energetic section and specifically iso-picramic acid diazotation


Do you have a ref for that? Diazo compounds tend to be more stable when there's an EWG (including nitro) cf. diazoacetic acid and derivatives, or diazodiphenylmethane. I definitely looked up some refs regarding the decomposition of p-hydroxyphenyldiazonium including these:

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/v03-088#.WKe...

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.378...



[Edited on 18-2-2017 by clearly_not_atara]

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by clearly_not_atara]
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[*] posted on 17-2-2017 at 19:03


Read the DDNP tread all you can wish for is inthere.




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[*] posted on 17-2-2017 at 20:15


Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
@NEMO: damn that sucks, but I don't see anything on there restricting the freedom of a consumer to stockpile paracetamol. At some point you have to bite the bullet and pay cash at a few different stores to get what you need... no, it's not legal, but neither is ~anything requiring an inert atmosphere and done without a license

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
At clearly_not_atara,
It will not work the way you think it will...
Para-amino-phenol when diazotized will form a relatively stable diazo-oxide...see the vast DDNP tread into the energetic section and specifically iso-picramic acid diazotation


Do you have a ref for that? Diazo compounds tend to be more stable when there's an EWG (including nitro) cf. diazoacetic acid and derivatives, or diazodiphenylmethane. I definitely looked up some refs regarding the decomposition of p-hydroxyphenyldiazonium including these:

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/v03-088#.WKe...

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.378...



[Edited on 18-2-2017 by clearly_not_atara]

[Edited on 18-2-2017 by clearly_not_atara]


I didnt know messing with bio digester's needed a license, then again I assume most forms of microbes are now controlled. Yes I could tock pile, but in a small town with 4 shops that sell it, dosnt take long to get noticed, especially if you also want aspirin.

They do the right thing and report it, the police turn up and find paracetamol, so no big deal. Then they find the Conc Nitric acid etc and all of a sudden it is a big deal.........

I think it was Woelen a while back, who said he was kinda giving up experimenting at home. Methane etc satisfies my curiosity for science, chemistry in the true sense is becoming out of reach.

Maybe when I am older I can move to a country where your not seen as a threat, but simply as someone who wants to learn.

Its a shame we didnt get to find out what happened to blogfast, I respect his privacy, but the info would have been a useful gauge as to how bad things currently are.
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[*] posted on 18-2-2017 at 02:43


BF will make a report soon...it is a matter of days or weeks.



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[*] posted on 19-2-2017 at 01:59


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
BF will make a report soon...it is a matter of days or weeks.


Thank you for letting us know, I have a feeling his information will be of great interest to those of us in the UK. I also have a nasty feeling it will be full of things we are not going to want to hear.

Still kind of beggars belief he even had his door knocked on.
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