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Author: Subject: KleanStrip denatured alcohol - what is the unlisted additive?
FireLion3
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[*] posted on 2-3-2017 at 12:21
KleanStrip denatured alcohol - what is the unlisted additive?


Recently I've come to learn that many KleanStrip products have additives in them not mentioned on the SDS... I learned this when I bought some of their liquid-sprayable paint stripper. The MSDS listed only containing DCM, Methanol, IPA, and Ethanol, but upon opening there was clearly some sort of polymer additive.

With their denatured alcohol, the MSDS lists:
Ethanol - 30%-50%
Methanol - 40%-60%
Additional Chemical Information: Specific percentage of composition is being withheld as a trade secret.


Now I thought this last line was referring to the ambiguity in the percentages... however this alcohol has a very obvious fruity/sweet smell to it. I had been assuming this fruity smell was just a mixture of the alcohols and my brain playing tricks on me, until recently I ran a reaction that had a completely wrong outcome leading to some unidentifiable and unanticipated product, which lead me to believe there is indeed some sort of reactive additive in this denatured alcohol not listed on the MSDS as is with the stripper.

Has anyone worked with this denatured alcohol before and have any idea what the additive might be?
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Dr.Bob
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[*] posted on 2-3-2017 at 19:03


Most paint strippers contain polymers or cellulose derivatives to make them stick to surfaces, as well as to retard evaporation (by forming a skin on top of the liquid). Most denatured alcohol contains stuff to make it harder to undenature. Separating ethanol and methanol completely (ethanol with less than 0.01% methanol) is very hard, but not impossible, but some additives can make it harder, as well as bitter agents to keep kids from drinking it.
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JJay
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[*] posted on 2-3-2017 at 20:07


Is this the Klean Strip fuel denatured alcohol? I think it contains some gasoline.



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UC235
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[*] posted on 2-3-2017 at 20:18


Probably has some methyl isobutyl ketone in it, and I would be frankly surprised if it didn't have denatorium as well, but the latter is at such a low level as to have no chemical effect.
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[*] posted on 2-3-2017 at 20:39


It has to conform to one of these formulas: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=8fe706d28fa...



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Dr.Bob
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[*] posted on 3-3-2017 at 17:16


The denatured alcohol started with has to conform to the ATF denatured list of formula in order to avoid paying taxes on it, but the manufacturer can add more things to the denatured ethanol to make further diluted material, so they can add other ingredients, like MEK, methanol, polymers, solvents, or almost anything else. They just cannot remove any denaturants.
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[*] posted on 3-3-2017 at 17:21


The MSDS only needs to mention things that are toxic (or otherwise hazardous).
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ElizabethGreene
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[*] posted on 4-3-2017 at 12:11


Can you crystallize and get a melting point of the unknown product(s)?



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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 13:52


Does the ATF policy apply in all circumstances?
When I worked for a compounding pharmacy we used to get 100% ethanol by Letco. It was NOT denatured, so it was pharmaceutical grade ethanol suitable for manufacturing and consumption in pharmaceuticals. We paid a higher price for it but I always assumed it was just because it was 100%. They also sold 95% NOT denatured that was about half the price. So I'm pretty sure we did not pay any taxes on it. Does that sound accurate to anyone? I've always wondered.
All the other ethanol we got was for topical preparations and it was denatured. But we specifically needed pharmaceutical grade pure for anything taken orally. I'm guessing that because it wasn't DIRECTLY for consumption (like alcohol you buy in the store) that there was some pharmaceutical loophole.

[Edited on 5-3-2017 by kjpmi]

[Edited on 5-3-2017 by kjpmi]
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macckone
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[*] posted on 5-3-2017 at 23:52


Yes there is a pharmaceutical loophole.
The 100% that is suitable for human consumption
is expensive. Normal 100% is made with benzene
and it is definitely not suitable for human consumption.

As for ethanol, the klean strip stuff should be distilled.
Any number of nasties you don't want in a reaction.
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[*] posted on 7-3-2017 at 16:56


The fruity smell from denatured alcohol is almost guaranteed to be ethyl acetate. They always seem to have that in their formula, regardless of the MSDS. Once I succeeded in getting rid of the ethyl acetate smell, only to notice another familiar smell behind it: turpentine. And that was the last time I ever considered using denatured alcohol for anything important.
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[*] posted on 7-3-2017 at 19:03


Yes, you can get an ATF license for specific uses to buy non-de-natured (drinkable) ethanol without paying taxes on it, either 95% or anhydrous. We used to use it where I worked before. But you have to keep records of its usage and who used it, when, where and for what. If it is used for research or making drugs, there is no tax due, but if it is used in foods (eg vanilla extract), it must be taxed for beverage use. Just like you can use morphine for certain uses with a prescription or DEA permission. But the denatured ethanol must conform to the rules to be tax exempt. The laws are about taxes, you can buy gallons of pure ethanol as long as you are over 21 and willing to pay the ~$16 per gallon taxes. Flavoring companies buy a lot of it.

[Edited on 8-3-2017 by Dr.Bob]
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[*] posted on 20-3-2017 at 09:25


Buy wine between 14 and 21% and distill it.
If you need absolute then use potassium carbonate
to separate the 95%, water and potassium carbonate
are the lower layer.

Then distill the ethanol fraction to remove any remaining
potassium carbonate. Repeat for purer product.
Treat with sodium metal or calcium oxide if you need anhydrous.
Then distill again to remove hydroxides and unused
drying agent.

Wine in that range is the cheapest tax wise per gallon of
alcohol in the US. Note that distilling alcohol is illegal without
the appropriate licenses. From a legal standpoint if you
distill a distilled alcoholic beverage you have already payed
the taxes and could make an argument that you are legal
since the taxes were paid, But I am not a lawyer and this
advice definitely doesn't apply in other countries.
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[*] posted on 20-3-2017 at 11:23


The regular Klean-Strip fuel alcohol is only 40% EtOH and 50% MeOH, with 10% other stuff. Really, not a good way to get lab grade ethanol.

The "green" Klean-Strip stuff is about 85% EtOH, 5% MeOH, and the 10% "other".

Some of that "other" is indeed EtOAc. Reflux an hour or two with NaOH, and it's gone.

I then distill (while still over NaOH) through a Vigeraux (MeOH and EtOH do NOT make an azeotrope), and toss the fore run. I start collecting product at about 72C, and go to about 82C.

K2CO3 is added to crash out water from the ethanol, then I just filter that out through a cotton ball in a funnel. The final product has no acetate smell, indeed, very little smell at all.

Even before adding sieves, I'm estimating I'm below 1% each of water and MeOH. Certainly good enough for general lab use.

I also should note I toss the fore run, like all methanol waste, into a methanol waste jar. I use methanol to rinse glassware after a water wash. Eventually, I redisill the waste to recover new tech wash methanol. Waste not, want not.

[Edited on 3/20/17 by PirateDocBrown]
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Melgar
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[*] posted on 20-3-2017 at 13:53


Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
Buy wine between 14 and 21% and distill it.
If you need absolute then use potassium carbonate
to separate the 95%, water and potassium carbonate
are the lower layer.

Then distill the ethanol fraction to remove any remaining
potassium carbonate. Repeat for purer product.
Treat with sodium metal or calcium oxide if you need anhydrous.
Then distill again to remove hydroxides and unused
drying agent.

Wine in that range is the cheapest tax wise per gallon of
alcohol in the US. Note that distilling alcohol is illegal without
the appropriate licenses. From a legal standpoint if you
distill a distilled alcoholic beverage you have already payed
the taxes and could make an argument that you are legal
since the taxes were paid, But I am not a lawyer and this
advice definitely doesn't apply in other countries.

Your idea is bad for two reasons. If you're looking for pure ethanol on a chemistry forum, it probably stands to reason that you're not planning on drinking the stuff. Law enforcement has to prove intent in this particular instance. In any case, a bucket of water, ten pounds of sugar, some yeast nutrients, and a packet of champagne yeast will get you the same concentration of alcohol as wine, for a lot cheaper. And that's actually totally legal, since you're allowed to brew your own beer or wine tax-free, as long as you make less than 100 gallons a year. What ISN'T legal, is distilling alcohol without a license for human consumption, so doing what you suggested would make no sense legally or financially. I'm not a lawyer either, but I do have extensive first-hand knowledge of that law, having inadvertently violated that particular provision of Pennsylvania state law in college, when I built my own reflux still. It's pretty much the same in every other state too.

edit: You can actually get a permit to distill ethanol for alternative fuel research, and that permit is actually really easy to get. It's a federal permit given out by the ATF. Since the ATF is constantly being defunded by NRA-acquiescing congressmen, they'll almost certainly rubber-stamp it too.

[Edited on 3/20/17 by Melgar]
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[*] posted on 20-3-2017 at 15:01


Why not start with Everclear? It's available at Wallyworld.
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macckone
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[*] posted on 20-3-2017 at 17:57


CharlieA,
Everclear is not available everywhere and in many states wally world does not sell distilled spirits. Laws differ by
jurisdiction.
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macckone
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[*] posted on 20-3-2017 at 18:12


Melgar,

Any still can be illegal. Including a standard glassware
set. If it is intended for distill alcohol. The law allows
solvent recovery which is the grey area. And it is unclear
to me that redistillation of tax paid alcohol would be
prosecuted, as the primary purpose is to collect the tax.
Someone with a law degree is probably required to sort it
out. An obscure section of the law states that it is also
illegal to distill vinegar as it is considered 'spirits'. In
countries other than the US this will of course be different.

As for the states, various states have different laws.
Some regulate stills and distillation while others simply
tax distilled products. As for making your own that is
a different website. Recovering solvent from wine is
more in scope for this site.
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Melgar
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[*] posted on 20-3-2017 at 18:51


Quote:
Melgar,

Any still can be illegal. Including a standard glassware
set. If it is intended for distill alcohol.

You left out the "for human consumption" part. Additionally, the ATF regulates the SALE of alcohol, but you can avoid virtually all of those laws simply by not selling it.
Quote:
The law allows
solvent recovery which is the grey area. And it is unclear
to me that redistillation of tax paid alcohol would be
prosecuted, as the primary purpose is to collect the tax.

Nope. Prohibition-era laws are still on the book in a lot of places. the government lost a lot of money when prohibition went into effect, so obviously that's not why prohibition was enacted. Rather, it was enacted for moralistic reasons, obviously. And changing those moralistic laws hasn't been a huge priority for anyone since the 1930s or so, which is why those laws are still on the books.
Quote:
Someone with a law degree is probably required to sort it
out.

Or me, because I researched the law pretty extensively after the aforementioned incident in Pennsylvania. Regulating alcohol is generally covered by federal laws, but states all put those same laws into effect too. And all states say that brewing your own alcohol is legal (up to 100 gallons a year) but distilling it for drinking purposes is not.
Quote:
An obscure section of the law states that it is also
illegal to distill vinegar as it is considered 'spirits'. In
countries other than the US this will of course be different.

That is not an "obscure section of the law", it's a misinterpretation of the law. Judges determine what the law means, and they take both the letter and spirit (no pun intended) of the law into account when deciding what to do.
Quote:
As for the states, various states have different laws.
Some regulate stills and distillation while others simply
tax distilled products.

Nope. Federal law trumps state law, and in this case, the ATF will get you if the state police don't get you first (but it'll probably be the state police that get you). Federal law is pretty clear here, and thanks to Prohibition, an extensive set of federal laws have been drawn up regulating alcohol.
Quote:
As for making your own that is
a different website. Recovering solvent from wine is
more in scope for this site.

In this case, wine is not a solvent, which is what any judge, lawyer, or person who knows anything about law would tell you. It is a beverage, and classified as such.

[Edited on 3/21/17 by Melgar]
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