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Corrosive Joeseph
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"Buy the RV.............. We start tomorrow..............!!"
/CJ
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by Corrosive Joeseph]
Being well adjusted to a sick society is no measure of one's mental health
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JJay
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The problem with using an RV is expense... while I could probably rig up some sort of fume hood, there would undoubtedly be corrosive vapors that
would lead to rust. I'd need a vehicle that I was willing to use as a consumable lab item, and that is too expensive.
Also, I think for proper ventilation, I would need to run an exhaust hose to a distance of 20 or so feet away, and that would be conspicuous. You
can't just do it in a Walmart parking lot.
I guess people who are making industrial quantities of methamphetamine don't have to worry about expense or destroying the vehicle, but I do.
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]
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WGTR
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I think this is some sort of coming of age adventure, and that part I can totally relate to. I went on some of those in my early 20's. I can't say I
hung out with the hippies and made bromine, though. Maybe you'll have an interesting story to tell when you're done!
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Magpie
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I also can sympathize. Before I built my fume hood and acquired a circulating cooling water source I had bought a very nice Kontes ground glass joint
organic kit, like those used in schools. I was dying to use it so set up a retort/condenser in my kitchen while the wife was away and made benzene
from benzoic acid/NaOH.
But I have to say that your proposal is an order of magnitude more strange (reckless) than my kitchen chemistry. If anyone sees you doing it things
could get ugly fast. Nobody outside of this forum is going to understand. You will likely be accused of drug making or bomb making. Those are the
only purposes the general public thinks an individual would have for chemistry.
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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JJay
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I'm actually not that concerned about things getting ugly fast. I mean, seriously, they can't just arrest people on suspicion of doing chemistry, and
I think most people I am likely to encounter out there just want to be left alone. Law enforcement is highly unlikely to present a nuisance, and it
would take an extremely bold and opportunistic thief to try to rob me. If I get injured, there's cell phone service and probably people within a few
hundred yards who would hear a cry for help.
If someone complains, they *do* have to do something about it, but that could be as simple as checking to see if I'm breaking any laws and telling me
to move along. In the area I'm thinking of, by law I have to comply with a request to move along within two weeks' time. Littering and disposing of
hazardous wastes is prohibited, and there are a few restrictions on hazardous materials, but they are clearly permitted. Digging deep holes is
prohibited. Target shooting, 4-wheeled vehicles, fires, and cutting wood are permitted, but there's no game, and the particular spot I'm thinking of
is inaccessible except by foot. The restrictions on hazardous substances are a bit vague, but clearly, they allow lead, gunpowder, gasoline and so
forth, not to mention mercury and cyanide for gold refining... the only actual regulations I'm seeing on hazardous substances in the area apply to
explosives.
[Edited on 6-3-2017 by JJay]
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MrHomeScientist
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An alternative method that keeps fumes to a minimum is by using electrolysis, which I covered in a 2-part video. Here's part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKjyM2AkZSY
If you prefer reading, I got the procedure from woelen's site, here: http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/OTC_bromine/...
It seems like you've done your research on regulations, but I have to agree: to a non-chemist hiker, stumbling upon someone with full distillation
apparatus filled with evil-looking red gas in the middle of the woods has to look extremely suspicious. Most people would not want to get anywhere
near that to ask what you were doing, and may go straight to the police. It's up to you to weigh the risks and benefits: How dire is your need for
bromine, and what possible consequences are you willing to accept to get it?
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JJay
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I have done the same thing but with sulfuric acid and distillation. I have a video of it here somewhere. (I should really upload some of my
videos....)
I am pretty sure that Cody of Cody's Lab has shot at least a few videos on public land, although I am not so sure that any of those involved anything
like a distillation apparatus....
So anyway, I wonder if you can fit half inch electrical conduit into a regular lab clamp.
[Edited on 7-3-2017 by JJay]
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macckone
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Jjay, have you ever heard of beating the charge but not the ride?
And yes fire code violations can be a civil offense, or a misdemeanor or even a felony. And guess who doesn't get to choose which one you can get
charged with. Portable labs is considered probable cause to arrest you, then they have 72 hours to charge or release you. And the slightest charge
is sufficient to hold you. White powdery substance? Cheap drug test says cocaine, might be sugar from a powdered donut. Yes, this actually happened
to someone. I have gotten the raw end of the fire code violation charge. It was dropped but still no fun and cost a lot for the lawyer and bail.
And if you use a public defender, it doesn't matter what you were doing, plan on a plea bargain.
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j_sum1
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Aah. Gotta love the US legal system. Guilty until proven guilty,
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JJay
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Quote: Originally posted by macckone  | Jjay, have you ever heard of beating the charge but not the ride?
And yes fire code violations can be a civil offense, or a misdemeanor or even a felony. And guess who doesn't get to choose which one you can get
charged with. Portable labs is considered probable cause to arrest you, then they have 72 hours to charge or release you. And the slightest charge
is sufficient to hold you. White powdery substance? Cheap drug test says cocaine, might be sugar from a powdered donut. Yes, this actually happened
to someone. I have gotten the raw end of the fire code violation charge. It was dropped but still no fun and cost a lot for the lawyer and bail.
And if you use a public defender, it doesn't matter what you were doing, plan on a plea bargain. |
I don't know what kind of fire code regulations you are talking about, but if you were committing arson, obstructing a means of escape, and/or setting
off fire alarms for no reason, you should have expected to be justly punished. If you never upgraded the paneling in your attic to meet current safety
standards, the worst thing the fire chief can do is look in your general direction and shake his head.
I hardly think your comment on public defenders is worthy of refutation... are you some kind of petty violator?
A portable lab is not probable cause. In any event, it's not like I won't be keeping a lab notebook.
I discovered yesterday that half inch conduit fits into standard lab clamps. It's a pretty tight fit, but I think I can assembly a lightweight and
portable bench that way.
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macckone
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Jjay, no the charge was for storing a flammable liquid in a glass container over 500ml.
It was not properly stored in a fire safe flammable cabinet.
It was malicious prosecution because they were looking for a
Meth lab and found no meth lab, no evidence of a meth lab,
No precursors and 1L of acetone in a glass bottle was what they
Could charge me with. I wasn't even doing organic chemistry.
And had the lab notebook to prove it. But until I got a real
Lawyer the PD was trying to get me to plea to 5 years.
I don't fault the police in general but this was oh has glass beakers
He must be bad idiocy. Yes a lawyer can get you off but that
Doesn't mean you should make it easy for them to convince a
Jury you are breaking the law. Using an rv makes it harder to
Justify a search as once it leaves a public road, it is considered a 'home'
And has higher burden to search.
As for fire codes, everyone on this forum is probably violating at least
One item. There may be exceptions but I know I currently have a
Bookshelf that narrows the hallway below the required 36 inches.
And yes I have a business license so they could gig me for that.
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JJay
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I don't believe this story. Do you realize how many people have cans of gasoline in their garages? Not to mention stuff like olive oil.
Also, the burden of proof required for searching an RV is not raised due to its status as a domicile. The burden of proof is lower on public roads
under current case law, but if you take your car off of public roads, it can't be searched without a warrant. There are some laws that treat domiciles
differently, but outside of Hollywood, that isn't one of them.
I'm not planning on running into any law enforcement and getting into a big debate about the Fourth Amendment, but I'm not planning on breaking any
laws either.
This doesn't apply to amateurs or people outside of a workplace, and most of it doesn't apply to chemists, but if you're a hairdresser, for example,
you can't have a glass bottle larger than 500 mL containing acetone sitting on the shelf for more than 30 days. You also can't leave an empty acetone
bottle of more than 500 mL size sitting on the shelf for more than 30 days (seriously): https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=...
Note that chemists are given an exemption under 1910.106(d)(2)(iii)(a)(2) and can completely ignore that entire paragraph if they choose under the
provisions of 1910.106(d)(1)(ii)(a).
[Edited on 8-3-2017 by JJay]
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Sulaiman
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JJay
Do not confuse legallity with real life;
unless you can imagine suing for a significant sum,
the problems that 'law enforcement' can cause may have disproportionate effects on your life.
frankly, if I saw an 'amateur chemist' in the woods,
I would be more than a little suspicious.
OTOH, a homeless person in the woods may benefit from learning the ancient and venerable art of distillation,
and would possibly be grateful enough to the person that helped him achieve greater self-esteem,
to warn of potential nuisances ?
but do not mention to him or his associates, all of whom live on stream water,
and have been consuming a very local product :
[Edited on 8-3-2017 by Sulaiman]
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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JJay
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Right... it's really not the same sort of thing at all as mercury or even toluene, but disposing of trace halogens and nontoxic sulfate salts in
natural bodies of water would be likely to generate ire among some people, even if the waters are contaminated, which they are.
I'd plan to conceal exactly what I will be doing from nearby campers, mainly because they'd probably expect me to supply drugs or distill some
beverages, and some of them are likely extremely dangerous people. Most people out there don't want any problems, but there do exist people who would
kill for a glass distillation apparatus....
[Edited on 8-3-2017 by JJay]
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JJay
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Oh, and there do actually exist standards for disposing of halogens directly into natural bodies of water. I'm not completely sure what would apply
here, but see this one, for example: http://www.deq.state.or.us/wq/pubs/bmps/chlorwaterdisp.pdf
The logic is something like this. Bear in mind that this was produced by a government office:
Step 1. Are you dumping less than 500 gallons of halogenated waste (at a time)?
No: Go to step 2.
Yes: Dump it.
[Edited on 8-3-2017 by JJay]
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macckone
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That is 500gal or less of 4mg/l.
And it only applies to chlorine and requires
Attempting to find other methods first.
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JJay
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Out of concern for those who may be upset about relatively innocuous wastes left over from some process getting dumped into a ditch in some
godforsaken place, I have decided not to dispose of any chemical wastes in the woods, even if neutralized. I am quite sure that it is possible to do
so (with some wastes) in a manner that has zero negative impact, but I have to carry everything to the site, so it's no big deal to take everything
away from it.
[Edited on 10-3-2017 by JJay]
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symboom
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Pack up what one brings in
What conservationist say
The leave no trace motto
Anyways not wanting this to become political
bring what you need perform the experiments neutralize the waste then pack it away in a sealed back when you leave
[Edited on 10-3-2017 by symboom]
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Sulaiman
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Just one more on waste;
carrying into the woods a waste container labeled 'WASTE', in large, friendly letters, indicates intent ... worst case.
EDIT
going to the woods : empty = good, not empty = bad
leaving the woods : empty = bad, not empty = good
appear to be 'good' at all times 
Afterthought:
maybe doing chemistry in the woods,
you would not be percieved as a threat by accidental onlookers
if you wear a super-hero costume ?
We can help to design it !
O.K. guys ... try to get the image of super - JJ - man out of your heads 
But if ever you need an emergency bromination,
turn on the searchlight
Sorry JJay - I just could not get it out of my head
I grew up on stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01xasUtlvw
P.S. provided that you have access to emergency repairs
an off-road bicycle may be a good investment for this project ?
Also, as I'm sure you know, in a fire situation, organobromine compounds are retardants;
so don't inhale
And, it was rumoured that bromide- (Greek βρῶμος "stench") was used to reduce sexual desires in soldiers,
so avoid the bromine fumes
as you may not be attracted to women
and they certainly will not be attracted to you
[Edited on 10-3-2017 by Sulaiman]
[Edited on 10-3-2017 by Sulaiman]
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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WGTR
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I was looking through the SM library earlier, and noticed Max Gergel's book Excuse Me Sir, Would You Like to Buy a Kilo of Isopropyl Bromide?
. That got me to thinking, that if you go through with this idea, you should write a book. You could entitle it
Hey Hobo, Wanna Make Bromine?
Chemistry Adventures in the Public Lands of Rural America
Containing over 100 beautifully illustrated plates of brominations in natural settings
Remember, you heard the idea from me first. Have fun.
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JJay
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Imagine a cluster of quaint porcelain crucibles oxidizing some chrome oxide in the campfire, backed by the majestic Rocky mountains.
Oh, and check out these natural pools of sulfuric acid:
[Edited on 10-3-2017 by JJay]
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JJay
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman |
so avoid the bromine fumes
as you may not be attracted to women
and they certainly will not be attracted to you
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I beg to differ. There are few things more sexy than a bromine distillation. If you want to lose the ladies, try making some chloroform.
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symboom
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I downloaded the picture plante1999 had when he had a website as inspiration of a nice portable lab.
And a picture of the golden book of chemistry
[Edited on 12-3-2017 by symboom]
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unionised
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If I was going to make bromine, I'd want to be somewhere that help was at hand if I needed it.
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JJay
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