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Author: Subject: Goverment possibly tainting Hydrogen Perxoide to stop TATP, HMTD, DADP, MEKP.
clearly_not_atara
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[*] posted on 4-4-2017 at 15:14


Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
H2O2 is very hard to synthesis !
using N2O2 or other things is really very dangerous process ! it can blast in the middle !


N2O2 is not a stable compound. Do you mean Na2O2? Alkali metal peroxides are known to be very unstable but the alkaline earths are a different story. In particular, BaO2 was the preferred synthesis of peroxide for decades before anthraquinone was discovered, so I have trouble believing it's as unstable as Na2O2.The MSDS does not make it sound very explosive. It states:

Quote:
s) Explosive properties - No data available


However, I have never heard of CaO2 being used to synthesize peroxide, and I suspect that if it worked, barium peroxide would be much less famous. I doubt that PZ can source the formation of CaO2 from atmospheric oxygen under reasonable conditions.

So as of now I continue to believe that barium is the safest way to make H2O2 at home. Should I not?

Quote:
I've already synthesized a quite big quantity of TATP with Peroxosulfuric acid without catalyst because it was already in acid media


Come to think of it, if you're trying to blow up a school (don't do this), you can probably produce caroate by electrolysis without ever touching hydrogen peroxide. We might call this "legislative irony" where government action prevents plenty of things but not what it should have prevented.

[Edited on 4-4-2017 by clearly_not_atara]
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halogen
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[*] posted on 4-4-2017 at 18:56


it's an asshole thing to do, or it would be: Hydrogen peroxide is already unstable and requires stabilizers for prolonged storage. Most people don't use a bottle at a time, and I imagine these can sit for years until they're needed. So, if you forget about a bottle and it balloons or splatters everywhere, you have angry consumers. There would have to be a warning. And an relatively expensive specially manufactured pressure gasket release valve cap. In addition you have the paradoxical formulation of a stabilizer and a destabilizer.

This is absurd enough not to believe.


[Edited on 5-4-2017 by halogen]




F. de Lalande and M. Prud'homme showed that a mixture of boric oxide and sodium chloride is decomposed in a stream of dry air or oxygen at a red heat with the evolution of chlorine.
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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 4-4-2017 at 20:10


Quote: Originally posted by halogen  
it's an asshole thing to do, or it would be: Hydrogen peroxide is already unstable and requires stabilizers for prolonged storage. Most people don't use a bottle at a time, and I imagine these can sit for years until they're needed. So, if you forget about a bottle and it balloons or splatters everywhere, you have angry consumers. There would have to be a warning. And an relatively expensive specially manufactured pressure gasket release valve cap. In addition you have the paradoxical formulation of a stabilizer and a destabilizer.

This is absurd enough not to believe.


[Edited on 5-4-2017 by halogen]


Never under estimate the stupidity of government regulators!
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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 5-4-2017 at 03:11


Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  


However, I have never heard of CaO2 being used to synthesize peroxide, and I suspect that if it worked, barium peroxide would be much less famous. I doubt that PZ can source the formation of CaO2 from atmospheric oxygen under reasonable conditions.

So as of now I continue to believe that barium is the safest way to make H2O2 at home. Should I not?

CaO2 is produced via CaO or Ca(2+) salts and peroxides (H or other metals)...
The reaction of CaO2 + H2SO4 --> CaSO4(s) + H2O2(l) is valid for both BaO2 and CaO2.

I gave that example of CaO2 for concentration of H2O2 ...but true that I was unclear.

Maybe that because of the same element raw you thought I was meaning that like BaO, CaO would form peroxide upon heating from air...
==> I don't know...it is possible (?) or maybe by mixing BaO (catalyst?) and CaO...so the BaO2 forms and peroxidizes the CaO into CaO2?
Would be interesting to test also MgO and SrO...but MgO2 wouldn't help for H2O2 isolation from H2SO4 since MgSO4 is soluble...




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Praxichys
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[*] posted on 5-4-2017 at 06:27


We need to attack the mentality, not the means. It's impossible to prevent the manufacture and use of explosive materials. Even if the sale of all relevant consumer products was somehow banned, organizations big enough would set up their own industries to manufacture them from raw materials.

Terrorists will probably just switch to an easier primary if H2O2 is adulterated. They're not going to bother with making their own H2O2 since they're just trying to procure explosives for a little cost and effort as possible.

If I made a trip to the hardware/grocery store, I could still make azides, fulminates, acetylides, picrates, picramates, DDNP, NHN, TACN, TACP, persulfates, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. Not to mention the myriad of amateur NPED designs out there, or a homemade EBW detonator system.

Further, if these terrorists knew anything about chemistry, they wouldn't be using peroxides as the main charge anyway. Even if ammonium nitrate isn't available, you would see people converting KNO3 into urea nitrate rather than mixing it with sulfur into a crude "gunpowder" and stuffing it into a pressure cooker. Heck, you could just buy smokeless powder and use acetone to convert it to a detonable brick. Considering that you could place a few innocuous eBay orders and whip up a couple of pounds of RDX or PETN in an afternoon, I doubt very much the perpetrators of these crimes understand much chemistry - let alone explosive physics - beyond what they read online.

However, I'll take adulteration of H2O2 any day over a glassware ban. Whatever gives the people that illusion of safety.




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markx
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[*] posted on 5-4-2017 at 09:00


Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
We need to attack the mentality, not the means.


Mentality is the force behind the means. Unfortunately mentality is also something that is vague, unreachable and tedious to cultivate....something that exists on the borderline of the imaginary. Whereas the means are something very real, something that can be taken, broken, banned under pain of penalty and all that in an instant...affecting everyone, despite the orientation of their mentality. For that very reason I fear that an attack on means is always favored over cultivation of mentality as a "first defence".
Looking at the situation that the world is facing at the moment I can't help to think that in near future we shall see a lot of the rights and freedoms that we have grown to take for granted seriously reduced or even becoming extinct....
Far too often do we seem to forget that the ideals defining our current world are not of a divine untouchable origin, but exist merely at the mercy of a covenant born of the actions of those who we have elected to speak on our behalf. Just as this covenant was once created, can it also be changed or abolished in an attempt to fight the rising madness. I hope that it will not come this far, but it is a scenario that is not too improbable....




Exact science is a figment of imagination.......
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XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 5-4-2017 at 11:00


This is why one most all ways fight, ATM it is the disease of the SJW (Social justice warrior) BLM cults doing the damage. When any large group refuses to accept or acknowledge reality you end up with what we see.


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Praxichys
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[*] posted on 5-4-2017 at 11:18


@ Markx - Indeed. If the EU is anything, it's an unfortunate set of bureaucratic standards the USA will soon have no choice but to assimilate to. Many of those countries got their chance post-WWII to rewrite constitutions, rearranging policy to bring government into the modern era. The USA had no such opportunity. There are original 300-year-old constitutional rights under fire in the process of becoming an unarmed, bureaucratic, "peaceful" post-imperialist society. A society without dangerous amateurs experimenting outside of licensed oligarchical corporations, a society where defending yourself, or being wealthy, is a crime.

The thing is, it's hard to complain about it when you can't offer a solution. There is no more wild west, nothing remaining for the average man to conquer. If you shared the habitable land in the US equally with everyone living here, we'd all get a little less than 9 acres. That's it. So, we begin to conquer the only thing left: each other.

We need now to move from a mentality of conquest to one of optimization, and that change will be bucked by everyone raised with the expansionist attitude, those who will stand blindly by their constitution in the hope that there is a shred of relevance remaining. It's only a matter of time before we take hard lessons from the developed world, most countries in which have population densities 5 or 6 times that of the USA. Personally I'm a constitution-toting expansionist with a barely-legal home lab and more guns than can be counted on two hands. But I know I will die a sad old man, disarmed, life confiscated, with nothing to remember the good times except a dusty old copy of my reference library to share with disinterested neighbors, of which there will be nearly twice as many.

I realize that what I do can be dangerous to those around me. There are reasons why you can't discharge a firearm within most city limits, much like there will eventually be laws about practicing chemistry at home. As the population grows, these laws become sad necessities, reinforced by EM accidents, terrorists, and the blunders of the misinformed. Science is so far advanced now that new discoveries are rarely made beyond research teams, and this casts redundancy on amateur scientists. Society will look upon us outmoded experimentalists with an ever warier eye considering the dangers involved, eventually outlawing the practice altogether for the benefit of your neighbors.

There aren't enough smart people to fight the structure, and there isn't enough structure to fight the stupid. So, enjoy it until you can't.

Speaking of which, where were we? TATP or something? :)

[Edited on 5-4-2017 by Praxichys]




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clearly_not_atara
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[*] posted on 5-4-2017 at 11:43


If bureaucracies were actually efficient they'd be more common throughout history. Unfortunately however it seems that after a bureaucratic society forms, the nomenklatura get better and better at cheating the system until they bring it down, like human kudzu. This would be okay if we were the protagonists in a romantic novel where war only affects the NPCs, but in reality it will probably be very unpleasant for all of us. It might not happen to us -- maybe to our children, or their children, or their grandchildren -- but at some point it's gotta happen.

It's amusing and highly inaccurate to think that science-minded libertarians represent a threat to or even a blip on the radar of the bureaucracy. What weakens it are the cancers that grow within -- the people who get a handle on a little power and want to keep it for themselves. What ultimately destroys it are paramilitary organizations (gangs) operating on loyalty instincts that all humans possess an aptitude for but which become developed only if your childhood happens in an optimally terrible environment. But these loyalty instincts, to us, are the behavior of pack animals, and we suppress them as much as we can -- this is not favorable in the long run. They become more prevalent as individual bureaucrats start to exploit and reward them for their own corrupt purposes, and then someone like Donald Trump spends their whole life becoming an expert at abusing them and destabilizes the order from within. But Trump is no Julius Caesar, nor even a Juan PerĂ³n.

I've started to suspect that religion is supposed to play the primary social role in suppressing this behavior, by redirecting the loyalty instinct to a nonexistent "leader" who cannot do as much damage as a real one. If I am looking for a direct benefit of a false belief, the Christian prohibition on putting anyone before God works against idols from Hitler and Caesar to Donald Trump and even Elon Musk.

[Edited on 5-4-2017 by clearly_not_atara]
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