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Twospoons
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[*] posted on 26-4-2017 at 13:05


I met one once. She'd been down in Antarctica taking ice core samples, and analysing the isotopic composition of the trapped air bubbles.



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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 26-4-2017 at 17:29


Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
What do climate scientists do all day, anyway?


I give up ....
So tell me what do they do all day, maybe mental exercises trying to warm up cognitively to the idea there is a profound difference between proper authentic science and blatant and excessive and plainly illusory "scientism"? Or maybe they are scientism deniers?

http://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_scientism.html
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JJay
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[*] posted on 26-4-2017 at 17:52


Quote: Originally posted by Twospoons  
I met one once. She'd been down in Antarctica taking ice core samples, and analysing the isotopic composition of the trapped air bubbles.


That sounds like geology if you ask me.




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Corrosive Joeseph
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[*] posted on 26-4-2017 at 18:38


Most peoples lives are usually dressed up to be something they are not................


/CJ




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mayko
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[*] posted on 26-4-2017 at 18:39


Ah yes, scientific disciplines, those static, strictly bounded, mutually exclusive ontological categories...



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JJay
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[*] posted on 26-4-2017 at 19:26


*shrug* You wouldn't typically cut grant funds for a meteorologist to go dig up dinosaur bones. An archeologist does that. A biologist doesn't get paid to make an inventory of the stars in a new galaxy; they count fish, capture insects, etc. A physicist doesn't discover new drugs. So this person, who I guess studied weather patterns or something, was digging in the ice? For money? Is this completely unreasonable, or am I to understand that "climate scientist" might include such categories as desert scientist, jungle scientist, and arctic scientist?



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mayko
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[*] posted on 26-4-2017 at 20:42




Paleoclimatology might be thought of as a subset of historical geology; this doesn't preclude it being a field in its own right. It investigates questions like, "How and why do ice ages occur?". Such questions are directly relevant to understanding patterns observed in the geological present. One such tool for doing so is ice cores, from which past weather patterns may be inferred from isotopic fractionation or entrapped dust and gas.

Other paleoclimatological records include lake varves, marsh mud, and dendrochronology, so if it makes you feel more comfortable, sure, think of ice science, lake science, marsh science, and tree science as practices which feed into the study of past climates, which inform the study of Earth's climate in general. If I sat in a crop field year after year and observed changes in the timing of insect pest (phenology) attributable to changing temperature... am I doing entomology, or am I doing agricultural science, or am I doing climatology? All of the above; they aren't distinct topics, because some are broadly interdisciplinary.

These might clear some things up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdisciplinarity
antedisciplinary science
A physicist, hired for drug design
Climatologist: What they Do
Historical Carbon Dioxide Record from the Vostok Ice Core




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JJay
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[*] posted on 26-4-2017 at 22:58


The very first statement just grates on my retinas. Paleo-anything is historical-nothing; I'm not trying to be rude about this, but I don't think you are qualified to answer the question.

Also, you're clearly doing entomology in the above example. Agriculture would be measuring the impact on crops.




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Texium (zts16)
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 06:13


Wait, woah there, are you saying that any science with the "paleo" prefix is not really science?

I agree with mayko, the sciences can all be viewed as interdisciplinary, and that's really the only good way to go about it. No branch of science could exist in a vacuum, and if you treat it that way, your worldview is clearly going to remain quite narrow.




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JJay
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 08:18


No, I'm saying that any art with the "paleo" prefix is not "historical." History refers to the study of that which was recorded by humans; what happened before that is "prehistorical."



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mayko
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 08:28


Historical geology is contrasted with structural (sometimes called physical) geology, not with prehistorical geology. You'd be hard pressed to find a historical geology text which doesn't cover, for example, paleontology.



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JJay
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 09:20


Here's one: http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-140519909...



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Texium (zts16)
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 09:27


Really, you don't think it ever references the fossil record when discussing the age of the earth?



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JJay
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 09:30


"Referencing" vs "covering" is not really a fair way of looking at things, with all due respect, zts16. My calculus book references Roman culture, but I would hardly say it covers it.

[Edited on 27-4-2017 by JJay]




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mayko
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 09:52


the index appears to disagree with your assesment

(And contains entries for paleogeography to boot)

IMG_20170427_134900.jpg - 362kB




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JJay
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 10:20


This book has over 12 references to Archimedes alone: https://books.google.com/books?id=QNfZls4urMoC (Who was technically Greek, but Greek culture... is Roman culture.)

You have failed to show even one proper entry for paleontology.

[Edited on 27-4-2017 by JJay]




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mayko
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 10:59



I have no idea what you mean by "proper entry" here, other than providing yourself with a goalpost-loosening wrench; can you be more specific about how proper entries are differentiated from improper ones?

In any event, this book is very clearly not limited to the geology of the past 10,000 years, so it ultimately undercuts your semantic complaint that paleogeology is strictly contained by "prehistoric geology".

I really have no idea why you are arguing this. I didn't invent this terminology; it's how geologists use language. I'm sorry you don't like it.



[Edited on 27-4-2017 by mayko]




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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 12:19


It does have a chapter on prehistoric time periods, true, but that is hardly the focus of the book...

I think it is perfectly reasonable to contain paleogeology to prehistoric geology, but I didn't mention that. For the most part, better data is available for recorded history than for prehistoric times.

I'm not sure why you're arguing over the example I provided rather than coming up with one of your own.




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mayko
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 13:05


I am not sure how you reconcile statements like
"I think it is perfectly reasonable to contain paleogeology to prehistoric geology, but I didn't mention that."
with
'Paleo-anything is historical-nothing;' and 'any art with the "paleo" prefix is not "historical."'

(unless you are using 'any' in a way I'm unfamiliar with)

Historical geology is the study of earth's past; it's not the anthropological study of how geology was practiced in prior episodes of human existence. Does that clear things up?

Are you asking me to provide an example of a historical geology textbook which covers paleontology? I can do that if you'd like, but I'd still need to know ahead of time how you distinguish coverage from reference and how you discern a "proper entry".




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JJay
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 13:37


Not really; I'm just saying, it seems like the obvious move.



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mayko
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 14:10


It seems to me like the obvious move is to first pin down what standard of evidence would satisfy you.

Maybe we can work through an example. Based upon the linked course syllabus, would you say this class in Historical Geology covers "the major techniques used by geologists to assess the paleoenvironments and sequence of events found in the rock record"? Or merely references it? More importantly, how did you come to that conclusion?

https://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/G102/102Syl.html

Again, I'm sorry to hear that you don't like how geologists use the phrase. Your proposed definition isn't wrong, exactly (it's rationally motivated and internally consistent), but it's idiosyncratic, and it certainly doesn't reflect badly upon my qualifications that I use the phrase in the standard manner.





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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 14:30


Quote:


What do climate scientists do all day, anyway?

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Quote: Originally posted by Twospoons  
I met one once. She'd been down in Antarctica taking ice core samples, and analysing the isotopic composition of the trapped air bubbles.


That sounds like geology if you ask me.


I strongly suspect it is futile to comment, but I could not resist. This comment is telling.
This question, on this forum... I don't understand. What are you even doing here?

It is odd how this forum has several members that are absolutely amazingly knowledgeable and experimentally skilfull people, to the point that they would be regarded as respected colleagues by professional scientists that are able to dedicate nearly 100% of their time to research and studying. Hats off. And then there are people like this...

The climatologist in question will be able to derive relations between temperature, CO2, oxygen levels etc by measuring certain isotopes in the trapped air bubbles in ancient snow.
She followed a risky carreer path, went to antarctica collecting samples, managed to forge an alliance with people that can measure the isotopic composition and did complex calculations to make sure all this effort yielded another tiny piece of useful information. She makes little money and all her friends mock her for her carreer choice. These people are my heroes. People asking ‘what do climatoligsts even do?’, and when an example is presented to them comment as above… well, I’m sorry but please go back to stoneage living conditions and die at the age of 30.

Is it not mind bogglingly fantastic how she'll be able to tell us what the atmosphere was composed of a 100,000 years ago? Just the fact that we can even find out such things is amazing to me. I can tell my kids with confidence what the sun is composed of, that the Higgs boson exists and that the gold in my wedding ring was forged when two neutron stars collided.
Just pause and truly consider that.

Don’t bother replying. I just needed to get this off my chest.

Quote:
orrect me if I'm wrong about this, but most of the people at the March for Science weren't really scientists, right?


Maybe it suffices that they just ackowledge the importance and usefulness of science?

[Edited on 27-4-2017 by phlogiston]

[Edited on 27-4-2017 by phlogiston]




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Twospoons
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 15:24


Bravo, sir! Bravo!



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JJay
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[*] posted on 27-4-2017 at 16:42


Quote: Originally posted by mayko  
It seems to me like the obvious move is to first pin down what standard of evidence would satisfy you.

Maybe we can work through an example. Based upon the linked course syllabus, would you say this class in Historical Geology covers "the major techniques used by geologists to assess the paleoenvironments and sequence of events found in the rock record"? Or merely references it? More importantly, how did you come to that conclusion?

https://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/G102/102Syl.html

Again, I'm sorry to hear that you don't like how geologists use the phrase. Your proposed definition isn't wrong, exactly (it's rationally motivated and internally consistent), but it's idiosyncratic, and it certainly doesn't reflect badly upon my qualifications that I use the phrase in the standard manner.



It's not really idiosyncratic... but it does appear that a lot of geologists use a broader definition of "history" than historians do. I'm guessing that the scope of historical geography has changed over time.

You do seem to know what you're talking about (unlike, for example, one of the posters above).

I do think that inferences about the past should be treated with skepticism. The phrase "historical geography" is misleading rhetoric and likely to fool the naive, but that phrase is actually pretty mild by comparison to the rhetoric used in some fields.

I'm very curious (and skeptical) about the models that would seem to predict climate changes. I know very little about them in particular, but I do know a lot about models.




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