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Author: Subject: The Stupidity of Certain Chemical Bans
bio2
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[*] posted on 24-1-2007 at 11:01


Would you mind telling us from what region of Draconia
you are from, Boomer?
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Sauron
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[*] posted on 24-1-2007 at 12:12


Obviously Lower Draconia where the county Mountie is Buford T.Justice.
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itsafreecountry?
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[*] posted on 24-1-2007 at 14:28


The way I see it, in the EU, the restrictions are geared more towrds toxic materials (don't you need goverment permission to purchase HgCl2 in the UK?). This is to be expected due to their more leftist/environmental leanings. But with the control of toxics, you more or less know what to expect. Chemists know what materials tend to show high toxicity and/or instability.

However, here in the US, the control is geared so much towards the farce of the "War on Drugs" (plus the recent additional focus toxics and explosives due to "terrorist" concerns), that one never knows what will be illegal or watched next, due to the huge variety of drugs.

What chemist, a couple decades ago, could have predicted that one could hardly buy sassafras oil within just a few years? Go look in the 1970's and older chemistry/toxicology literature and observe the warnings about white phophorus. Red phosphorus was hardly mentioned unless in a synthetic context.
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[*] posted on 24-1-2007 at 16:43


As you say, in the US prior to the last 2 decades red phosphorus was just another reagent, although care was needed in storage and handling. In my 1962 lab manual is a procedure for the preparation of acetyl chloride using red P. This preparation has been deleted in the 1977 edition of same manual.

I have a relative who lives in a city where phosphorus was until just lately manufactured by the ton. He said that the plant had a problem with employees walking out with it in their lunch boxes.




The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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[*] posted on 24-1-2007 at 21:13


Makes sense. The stuff is big bucks on the street unfortunately :\



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[*] posted on 24-1-2007 at 23:49


Now of course not only do at least some govts not want you to have red P but they also want you not to have acetyl chloride! because you *might* make that terrible weapon of mass destruction, CHLOROACETOPHENONE with it.

The inclusion of the nonlethal lachrymators and their precursors is one of the most utterly ridiculous aspects of CWC. Tear gas, what the hell.

Of course every police force in the world still uses it and CS so I suppose by that logic every chief of police is the moral equivalent of a "Chemical Ali" (who I suspect, they'll be hanging before long.)

I do remember when the Swedes wanted to have LBJ indicted in the World Court for "war crmes" because we used to pump CS into vietcong tunnels. So I guess the CWC stance on riot agents is just a survival of that sort of selfrighteous asininity. I suppose the Swedes would have felt better had we pumped the tunnels full of Dihydrogen Monoxide resulting in acute DHMO intoxication known to produce respiratory failure. Logistically trickier I suppose.
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[*] posted on 27-1-2007 at 21:59


Quote: "In another thread we touched on thionyl chloride which is a useful chlorinating reagent, now politically incorrect. Why?"

I've apparently been out of touch. I bought a bottle last year. When was it banned? PCl4 still being sold to non-licensed folks? Or is chlorinating banned altogether? Now there's a plan!

Since chloroephedrine can be reduced to make the Evil One better not allow anybody to chlorinate anything. While we're at it, just make chemsitry illegal except at schools and government certified labs.

Sounds a little like China in the '50's doesn't it?

(how does one make a quote box?)

[Edited on 28-1-2007 by chemrox]
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[*] posted on 27-1-2007 at 22:45


What we seem to be heading for is a system much like that of the Hapsburgs of olden times where alchemy was illegal unless you worked in the king's laboratory. There it was promoted and funded. :mad:



The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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[*] posted on 28-1-2007 at 03:28


And that is what is called the Nanny State. A society in which national government regards its adut citizens as small children who must be herded, coddles, fenced, monitored and supervised.

It sucks.
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[*] posted on 29-1-2007 at 19:35


"Pickle 4" (PCl4)?

I only know of PCl3 and PCl5 (and POCl3).

The "nanny state" thing has got to stop.

All of this shit results from political horse-trading in the name of "the children", when it really amounts to protecting the functionally retarded because they both vote as they are told and reproduce indiscriminantly (which means more undereducated, indoctrinated voters).

It kills me,

O3

How long will it be until forks are sold with corks?

(Dirty rotten scoundrels was, as they say, "the shit").

[Edited on 30-1-2007 by Ozone]




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[*] posted on 29-1-2007 at 22:16


The P(IV) oxidation state is little known but highly interesting...

Thionyl chloride is a CWC listed chemical. As a result some member states of the Convention have simply banned it outright. CWC does not require that. Where I live it is totally unavailable.

While it is not the most convenient compound to prepare it is far from impossible.

And there are alternatives to it that are not on CWC at all and not banned here.

[Edited on 30-1-2007 by Sauron]
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[*] posted on 30-1-2007 at 15:49


I like the point ozone made about the "functionally retarded".
Fuck the slow, stupid, incompetent, socially smart, football smart, etc. They bog down classrooms, wheras the gifted are often unnoticed... well they do get attention in the form of harrassment and bullying.

These problems, however, can be specifically addressed. But it's the general protection of the bottom-feeders that is hurting us all in that it is treated with more or less of a shotgun approach. Chemicals are notably attacked from a multitude of angles. Hence, the plight of us "unsanctioned scientists".

Case in point for trending back to more of a natural selection/Darwin Awards mentallity, the video of the kid with the chlorine and alcohol bottle:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4292898733372477540...

I see it is this way. If one ventures into an unknown procedure and is harmed, that is by definition ignorance. When a known dangerous activity is done with an error, an outcome of injury is due to stupidity and/or carelessness.
But when the explicit goal of a k3wl's experiment is to generate an explosion, and you carry out the procedure in your hand (note the vigorous shaking), it is completely inexcusable! This kid does not deserve the hand he probably lost.
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[*] posted on 30-1-2007 at 21:37


Ray Bradbury envisioned a dystopia in which the firemen didn't put out fires, they burned books. Books were banned and possession of books was a crime.

The Luddites were an antitechnological movement, Heinlein envisioned a future anti-science/antitechnology reaction and neo-Luddite society.

Today not in science fiction but in society we are experiencing the leading odge of pretty much what Bradbury and Heinlein dreamed of. Armed authorities with draconian powers acting against presumed "clandestine laboratories".

The war on drugs is bogus and the war on terror, insofar as the largely fictitious threat of chemical terror, is also unjustified. The motivation behind this phenomenon seems to me to be fear of science, and is therefore essentially Luddite.
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[*] posted on 30-1-2007 at 22:05


Please don't forget that of the top 5 best selling drugs last year (C&E NEws) ~3/5 of them were antidepressants (2) or antipsychotics (1). The rest were statins, IIRC.

SOMA is on its way! Advertise on television, "are you having a bad day" and the average person would say, "yes"; well then, ask your Dr. about _______. It may take 6 weeks before taking effect. By then, if the unwitting misses meds, they have a *really* bad day! See addiction. With the exception of a few clinical cases, the majority are medicated with little cause, likely because the doc knows that the patient will likely go somewhere else unless a presciption is written (nevermind the pharmie sales reps with the Ahem, *technique*).

It's really too bad that the doc would be sued for saving someone's sanity with a new and improved drug, placebo (or a good old fashioned bottle of booze).

What ever did we do when we had to solve our problems (frequently improving the self)?

Character does not come in pill form, at any price.

Cheers?

O3

[Edited on 31-1-2007 by Ozone]




-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
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[*] posted on 31-1-2007 at 03:52


Full marks, O3. But soma is not on it's way, soma is here already, it's just concealed under a score of other names.

(Is there anyone reading this who does not know what soma refers to? The ubiquitous happy pill of Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" another dystopic future vision.)

When Bayer was preparing to market diacetyl morphine (heroin) as a cold remedy (alongside Aspirin analgesic) they screened it for addctiveness, on their own chemists and technicians. They concluded that heroin was nonaddictive. The character of their German scientific types was such that even heroin, now regarded as a hard body drug, had no particular allure. No siren song.

There is such a thing as an addiciton-prone personality and the presence or lack of it plays a serious role in determining the outcome of encounters with "addictive" drugs. Some people become dependent on opiates after encountering them only in a clinical setting. Most people do not.

It is fashionable to blame the drugs and not the people.

The Harrison Narcotics Act was passed mostly as a sop to the newly unemployed federal agents who had been trying to enforce the Volstead Act (prohibition of alcohol). Which was only passed because male voters were overseas fighting WW I while the newly enfranchised female voters were at home to cause such mischief.

[Edited on 31-1-2007 by Sauron]
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[*] posted on 4-2-2007 at 00:05


POCl3 .. I'm sloppy sometimes
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[*] posted on 10-2-2018 at 21:04


I spent the past half hour reading this entire thread. This makes me sad, because it's all very real, what you are saying. That was a very good reference, the one to Fahrenheit 451. I have not read Huxley yet. Although given what I've heard of it, and looking at the way things are, and again referencing 451, we have to be brave in this world now. There's a "movement" on YouTube calling it self FE and those that believe it, "flat earthers". Smh..... ....... I made a few vain attempts to speak to the young ones that seemed possibly intelligent but impressionable with references to the Tropic of Cancer and Capricorn and why they are the same circumference and thus the North Pole is not the center of the fucking planet. "I'm reminded of the great Socrates who said, 'I drank what?'".....:mad::(
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[*] posted on 11-2-2018 at 04:11


You guys should feel lucky, here in the UK, the government is gearing up to ban sulphuric acid and other strong acids without a license due to the few acid attacks that have occurred over the past several years. Not even drain cleaner, which is hard enough to obtain as it is, will be spared. I wouldn’t even be surprised if other chemicals like sodium hydroxide are banned within the next few years either..



In chemistry, sometimes the solution is the problem.

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[*] posted on 16-2-2018 at 17:47


I despise authoritarian garbage such as this. It's about Liberty plain and simple. Now I don't believe civilians should be able to own automatic firearms as MY Liberty decreases when your supposed Liberty to to pack an M4 comes into play. A MAC 10 sub machine gun costs upwards of 30K AUD in Oz and I only know that as some bloke got caught making them on the news and they said they cost as much... how much are they are the states? A couple grand?

The same goes with explosives but here's where it gets iffy... the IRA did OK with ammonium nitrate but should it be banned? Fuck no!

It's all about the 'War on Drugs' which I honestly believe we as a society are begging to abandon. Even in the US. Meth is so evil but Adderak is a ok? Lol yeah it's fine! Let's pump all the 5 years olds with the stuff... God forbid they don't become productive citizens. It's all about control. Wel guess what... No-one is going to tell me what I can and can't do to my own body. However that doesn't mean I am prepared to lose my freedom for many many years by manufacturing controlled substances...

Maybe Voltaire would be ashamed of me but hey... I'm not him. But should I be able to indulge in the dark arts? Yes I should... the authorities of this world have been happy to peddle me huge doses of amphetamines since day dot... parents, teachers, cops, bosses, doctors, therapists and headshrinkers...

Don't get the wrong idea... I'm an ex hedonist trashbag conneser of all things breakbeat... now I just whine about being old lol




Hyperbole be thy name
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[*] posted on 20-2-2018 at 00:01


Don't even get me started on the fact that 2 out of 12 of the reactive nonmetals on the periodic table are banned for being useful for a reaction that could reduce pseudoephedrine into methamphetamine. When banning phosphorus didn't work, did the DEA consider that perhaps banning one of the 6 elements that are essential for all life, an element that exists in every base of every genome of every organism in the world, might be a bit overkill? Hell no. The figured they just hadn't banned quite enough chemicals, and this time took aim at iodine. Potassium iodide was okay, even though converting it to elemental iodine is trivial.

The ones who actually solved the problem were the pharmaceutical companies, who put so many hydrophilic polymers and emulsifiers in their pill formulations that trying to extract pseudoephedrine from them would leave most meth cooks staring in bewilderment at a mason jar of pink goo. And methamphetamine production promptly moved to Mexico.

This is what winning looks like.




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[*] posted on 20-2-2018 at 00:31


Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  

The ones who actually solved the problem were the pharmaceutical companies, who put so many hydrophilic polymers and emulsifiers in their pill formulations that trying to extract pseudoephedrine from them would leave most meth cooks staring in bewilderment at a mason jar of pink goo. And methamphetamine production promptly moved to Mexico.

This is what winning looks like.


Winning over here was removing pseudoephedrine completely from OTC formulations and it’s now prescription only. It was replaced by phenylephrine, which has been clinically proven to be no more effective than placebo yet every ‘homebrand’ cold and flu remedy has been pumped full of the stuff as a complete replacement, making them pretty much useless for what they’re supposed to treat. Companies use the emulsion tactic for other drugs though, codeine likely being the largest target that I know of since it can’t really be replaced by anything else and it’s prescription only anyway.




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[*] posted on 21-2-2018 at 09:27


Quote: Originally posted by LearnedAmateur  
Winning over here was removing pseudoephedrine completely from OTC formulations and it’s now prescription only. It was replaced by phenylephrine, which has been clinically proven to be no more effective than placebo yet every ‘homebrand’ cold and flu remedy has been pumped full of the stuff as a complete replacement, making them pretty much useless for what they’re supposed to treat. Companies use the emulsion tactic for other drugs though, codeine likely being the largest target that I know of since it can’t really be replaced by anything else and it’s prescription only anyway.

The main reason that wouldn't work in the US is the whole "clusterfuck healthcare system" going on here. See, we developed our social welfare system during the 1950s, when companies were fighting each other for workers for their factories, and there were more jobs than people. (Incidentally, most single mothers at the time were war widows, and laws were written to be especially generous to them. This created a sort of perverse incentive system later on.)

Anyway, companies were giving away huge benefits packages to lure in workers, including healthcare, pensions, etc. This system works great when you're the only large economy that has enough manufacturing capacity to rebuild the bombed-out cities of Europe and Asia, but once those continents get their own factories online, it doesn't work quite as well.

But here in the US, people have confused cause and effect, and determined that "we were doing everything right" in the fifties, and the reason we're doing less good now is because we've lost our way somehow. The answer certainly can't be to change laws that were written during the 1950s, because in the fifties everything was so much better! It must be the welfare system (that we didn't put into place until, you know, we actually needed one) that's responsible for all those unemployed people who can't find work.

So yeah, rather than fix our shitty broken system, we start banning elements. IIRC, the levo form of pseudoephedrine works just fine as a decongestant, and would reduce into non-psychoactive levomethamphetamine. But because levo-pseudoephedrine doesn't occur naturally, (pseudoephedrine does, alongside ephedrine, in ephedra sinica) they'd have to have all sorts of clinical trials to establish its efficacy, and nobody wants to pay for that.




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[*] posted on 1-3-2018 at 06:21


Quote: Originally posted by WangleSpong5000  

It's all about the 'War on Drugs' which I honestly believe we as a society are begging to abandon. Even in the US. Meth is so evil but Adderak is a ok? Lol yeah it's fine! Let's pump all the 5 years olds with the stuff... God forbid they don't become productive citizens. It's all about control.


I do believe one is a 'release agent' and the later is a reuptake inhibitor. The distinction is significant, no agency requiring 'alertness enhancement' uses the amphetamines anymore. Modafanil and its hyped enantomerically pure new variant ('nuvigil') being the go to upper of choice currently. My shrink dumped ten boxes of nuvigil on me earlier this year. Apparently the drug rep has been told to 'get the word out' that 'alertness enhancers' are the new off label fad treatment for depression.

All that said, we make mistakes (god look at the Zanax debacle), we recognise them, we try to shift course, make less of a mistake next time.

Everything will be fine, we just have to wait another 20years for the bulk of the dogmatic boomers to die. Then public policy can actually be formulated with consideration to all possible solutions.




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