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arkoma
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Bunkpolice.com says they will soon have anonymous qualitative analysis services available.
Now, "once upon a time" methamphetamine was made in the USA and the folks south of the border grew weed. In the last two decades this has COMPLETELY
flip flopped. The American farmer has once again proven that we are the best and most productive farmers EVER. The cartels are business people and
IMHO are interested in $ ONLY. Their product is either really high quality, or it is total shit. They don't cut their
product. Isopropylbenzylamine is easy, easy money but it won't support an ongoing business model. 99% of tweakers don't have the skill
to cut cartel dope and recrystallize. the IPBZA (tired of spelling it out) provides enough of a head change to momentarily pacify the monkey (on your
back).
Have your buddies READ the OP in the link I provided above.
This thread has about run it's course methinks. Bluelight and Drugs-forum much more knowledgeable place to discuss this issue. In fact it has been
extensively covered there as is HARM REDUCTION. Not advocating the restriction of "free speech" but this is a amateur SCIENCE forum.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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clearly_not_atara
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| Quote: | | Bunkpolice.com says they will soon have anonymous qualitative analysis services available. |
Indeed, and I think this is about the fourth time someone in this thread has linked an anonymous drug testing service. These services are quite
respected in harm reduction communities, and they generally have access to equipment that amateurs do not.
I hadn't thought about it, but Loptr's point is sound. It may not be wise to analyse street drugs in your home lab, especially if
you, like Melgar, have always been an above-board chemist and do not take anti-government precautions the way a real drug chemist does. It would be
very unfortunate for a ScienceMadness member to get prosecuted for a misunderstanding arising from this issue.
It's fun to talk about hydrogenolysing benzylamines, but not fun to get caught playing with meth.
[Edited on 5-7-2017 by clearly_not_atara]
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Melgar
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I wasn't so much interested in doing the analysis myself, as I was the idea of coming up with some simple way of testing and/or separating the
substances, both for the purpose of harm reduction and because it seems like an interesting challenge. Since the chemistry discussion is orders of
magnitude better here than on the forums you mentioned, and because it's the chemistry that I'm interested in, I posted the thread here, in the "Legal
and Societal Issues" forum.
Hydrolyzing the benzylamine moiety was my first thought too, but then I realized that if someone just made a different salt that wasn't the
hydrochloride salt, solubility could be vastly different. I'm pretty sure Constantine doesn't have a hydrogenator or Pd/C catalyst, but he can
probably get tartaric acid, and make the bitartrate salt.
I also am interested in this, because I can just toss ideas to my friend, and then he does the experimental work. Apparently wherever he is in the
Appalachian region, methamphetamine is like the social thing to do there. He says this stuff makes him feel like shit and he won't touch it. Not
really sure why he's still there though. Sounds like there's not much to do besides fuck around trying to clean cut meth.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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JJay
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Everyone who regularly reads this forum knows that Melgar isn't making drugs in his garage. But a casual observer might not know that.
Bitartrate seems like kind of an odd choice unless you're dealing with a racemic mixture, but if you know that bitartrate salts of D-meth and L-meth
have different properties and that the substance in question has similar properties to meth (which seems odd given its structural differences), it
might not be an entirely unreasonable choice. But IMHO, despite claims to the contrary, you can probably resolve this issue by going to the library
without ever looking at any meth.
I'd suggest playing with something legal that does neat color changes, or pyrotechnics.
[Edited on 6-7-2017 by JJay]
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clearly_not_atara
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| Quote: | | Apparently wherever he is in the Appalachian region, methamphetamine is like the social thing to do there. |
The advantages of Appalachia are that it's pretty and (in the southern parts) the climate is mild, with cooler summers than the lowlands and winters
that aren't much worse (excluding coasts, which have the best winters). For example, Asheville's July and January average highs are 84 and 47, whereas
for Memphis it's 92 and 50. For Cincinnati, that's 86 and 39. Morgantown, to the east, sees 83 and 39, with 12 days per year above 90 compared to
Cincinnati's 21.
The disadvantages are... well... roughly everything else.
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Praxichys
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I would try a couple of things.
First, elute with TLC plates and see if you can separate anything out. Odds are you won't be able to chirally resolve the amphetamines on silica but
the suspected cutting agent will separate with the correct choice of solvent. You will probably have to freebase the sample first and play with
solvent mixtures to get a clean separation. TLC is easy and cheap though, and amphetamine should be easy to develop with iodine vapor or with weak
permanganate solution and a little heat.
Once you have determined the r-factors, scale up. Use a packed column and the same solvent mixture to get a physical gram-scale sample of the
adulterant. After isolation, you will be able to assay the MP, BP (if applicable) crystal structure, density, and get molecular weight from freezing
point depression in a suitable solvent (or using the Dumas method assuming no decomposition). A cheap polarimeter or close examination of crystals can
tell you if the adulterant is chiral. Titrimetry will confirm if it's monobasic or not. You can find out if it's deliquescent or if it forms hydrates
by checking mass loss with gentle warming in a vacuum desiccator or with a dean-stark setup. That should give you enough clues to find out what it is
from published references, or at least distinguish it from a set of common adulterants.
To further confirm, you could get a sample of isopropylbenzylamine and subject it to the same tests. See if it elutes identically, etc.
[Edited on 7-7-2017 by Praxichys]
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Loptr
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Another question would be how heavy of a drug user is your friend? I was prescribed adderall for my ADD type-3 diagnosis when I was 5 years old, and
after being on it for about 20 years I started getting paradoxical effects. I would take it and immediately fall asleep. It was bizarre. I eventually
stopped taking stimulant medications because I realized it was probably time to find another form of treatment.
Could these issues you described actually be subjective effects?
"Question everything generally thought to be obvious." - Dieter Rams
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karlos³
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Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  | Another question would be how heavy of a drug user is your friend? I was prescribed adderall for my ADD type-3 diagnosis when I was 5 years old, and
after being on it for about 20 years I started getting paradoxical effects. I would take it and immediately fall asleep. It was bizarre. I eventually
stopped taking stimulant medications because I realized it was probably time to find another form of treatment.
Could these issues you described actually be subjective effects? |
So how does this help in analysis? This is just a subjective report, but does it help in accurately descrbe an impurity? I think that even heavy
stimulant users won´t endure a 20 year binge, usually they loose interest after estimatedly seven years.
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Loptr
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| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ | | Quote: Originally posted by Loptr | Another question would be how heavy of a drug user is your friend? I was prescribed adderall for my ADD type-3 diagnosis when I was 5 years old, and
after being on it for about 20 years I started getting paradoxical effects. I would take it and immediately fall asleep. It was bizarre. I eventually
stopped taking stimulant medications because I realized it was probably time to find another form of treatment.
Could these issues you described actually be subjective effects? |
So how does this help in analysis? This is just a subjective report, but does it help in accurately descrbe an impurity? I think that even heavy
stimulant users won´t endure a 20 year binge, usually they loose interest after estimatedly seven years. |
Well, my point is the possibility of the "adulterant" being the effect of changed biochemistry after sustained usage. If it doesn't act like a
stimulant any longer, and instead puts him to sleep, then this adulterant sounds very similar to my experiences with adderal, which was a
prescription, and had no significant impurities.
The point is that you can't trust any subjective experience or report. This might just be in the head of the drug user, and not in the drug
they are taking. Granted, it is almost guaranteed to be cut with something, but that's beside the point. The effects the drug user is describing
cannot be expected to only be attributed to this supposed impurity.
[Edited on 10-7-2017 by Loptr]
"Question everything generally thought to be obvious." - Dieter Rams
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JJay
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As a side note, it looks like Oregon is legalizing LSD, MDMA, cocaine, meth, oxycodone, and heroin: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-11/oregon-legislature-...
I think there is still a small chance that the bill could be vetoed and the veto not overridden, but it will probably be signed into law.
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MrHomeScientist
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Legalizing and Decriminalizing are very different things. The Oregon bill only proposes to "[reduce] possession of illegal drugs to misdemeanors
rather than felonies as long as the person in possession does not have prior drug convictions."
The drugs remain illegal, as they should be. Meth in particular has done horrible things to the people in my area.
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JJay
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You're right... there are several articles online stating that there are no criminal charges to be filed for those six substances unless the offender
has prior convictions (such as this one: https://libertarianvindicator.com/2017/07/10/hard-drugs-to-b...), but the actual bill does specify that possession of those substances is a
misdemeanor.
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Melgar
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| Quote: | | Another question would be how heavy of a drug user is your friend? |
He doesn't have enough income to be a habitual user, and when he runs out, he just gets a lot lazier than usual for a while. When he's not using
anything he's kind of hyperactive. Really, he would almost certainly be diagnosed with ADHD by a psychiatrist if he actually went to one. He was a
Navy technician for five years, so I've been urging him to just get an Adderall prescription through the VA or something. Maybe he will eventually,
who knows. But he doesn't trust institutions at all, so I haven't made any progress on that front.
And yes, even though most anecdotes are regarding its effects on people, I'd obviously prefer to disregard them entirely in favor of more objective
tests. Marquis test seems to be a good one. Constantine reports that the cut apparently inhibits the reaction between methamphetamine and the
Marquis test, so that seems like an extremely easy test right there. And the Marquis test can be made just by adding some polyoxymethylene plastic to
sulfuric acid, then waiting until it smells strongly of formaldehyde.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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Melgar
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So it looks like there's finally an answer to this. Apparently, Mexican cartels have been diverting pseudoephedrine from the plants where they make it
in India. I figured they'd have some more sophisticated method, but nope, they start with the same shit that trailer parks use. So the plants in India
have cracked down hard on diversion lately, and the cartels have been forced to moved to a phenylacetone-based synthesis. But this produces racemic
methamphetamine, and doesn't form huge crystals that people have come to expect. So they cut it even further with n-isopropylbenzylamine, which seems
to have a whole mess of unpleasant negative side-effects like headache and lethargy. Since n-isopropylbenzylamine is achiral, it forms giant clear
crystals like nobody's business, and incorporates methamphetamine into its crystals too.
It's basically what all the large-scale manufacturers have started doing now. All someone has to do now is develop both lung cancer and a
stereoselective method of phenylacetone reductive amination, wage a turf war with the Mexican cartels, name himself after a famous mid-20th-century
physicist, and recruit a delinquent former acquaintance as an assistant, and you'd have the setup for a really compelling dramatic TV series. 
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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clearly_not_atara
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Pseudoephedrine is the ideal starting material because it's already racemically pure. Laevomethamphetamine is inactive, and while some people claim
the racemate is more pleasant, it's nonetheless less potent, and potency = profit. Reduction of pseudo gives pure d-meth, whereas reductive amination
of P2P gives a racemate. The only "total synthesis" that can compete is based on amateur biomanufacturing to produce a chiral precursor I won't name,
which is then reductively aminated to produce... you guessed it, pseudoephedrine.
I suppose you could use a chiral catalyst for the reductive amination. There is a big phenyl ring to latch on to. But you're probably not
making it yourself, so there's still diversion involved, and now you have to divert it from more sophisticated manufacturers who are less corrupt
than... well, most of Asia.
[Edited on 9-3-2018 by clearly_not_atara]
[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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Sigmatropic
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Racemically pure, that's a good one... Even though we're talking about a compound which is diastereomeric. Are you talking about the phenylglycidate
route being based on "biomanufacturing"? Or some derivative of mandelic acid I am unaware of? I've not heard of any amphetamine precursors being made
by biomanufacturing.
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sigmatropic | | Racemically pure, that's a good one... Even though we're talking about a compound which is diastereomeric. Are you talking about the phenylglycidate
route being based on "biomanufacturing"? Or some derivative of mandelic acid I am unaware of? I've not heard of any amphetamine precursors being made
by biomanufacturing. |
I think that was just a brain fart and he meant "enantiomerically pure". The precursor is phenylacetylcarbinol, produced by fermenting benzaldehyde.
The first step in the process of learning something is admitting that you don't know it already.
I'm givin' the spam shields max power at full warp, but they just dinna have the power! We're gonna have to evacuate to new forum software!
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Yttrium2
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Whoops, wrong thread
[Edited on 3/12/2018 by Yttrium2]
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