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Author: Subject: UK legal disposal of banned substances.
anonymoose
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[*] posted on 12-7-2017 at 05:43


Sounds like a plan :)
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[*] posted on 12-7-2017 at 06:03


Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose  
ive just ordered 100grams of Ga, so it would be nice to know if rochelle's salt would remove Ga from Al. i find it funny to notice that my anonymous tag gets much less grief than my actual tag. post numbers mean nothing of a persons knowledge


Rochelle's salt is pretty standard when it comes to working up aluminum-based reagents, so I would expect it to go somewhat smoothly.




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[*] posted on 13-7-2017 at 14:39


Nice to know, thanks :)
with some more resarch regarding my Hg issue it turns out the authorities are more worried about limiting acquisition of Hg, as far as i can tell. the council, with which i have been in contact, don't seem to give the slightest of turds about me owning Hg. im only guessing here but i think the point of this law is to prosecute drugs and explosive manufacturers. i will keep digging and share my findings
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[*] posted on 14-7-2017 at 09:50


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
I know what I am talking about, and the proof of that is easily verified. But you go ahead and subject what I say to confirmation, whether it involves the reaction I described or anything else I have posted on this board.

You are welcome.



[Edited on 7/11/2017 by Rosco Bodine]

Hi
Sorry for the late reply- cock up with my log in and an old email address.
Just for the record the legislation referred to here was a product, not of the European union, but of the slightly deranged Conservative (i.e. Right wing) government who have no idea what science is, but want to make sure it doesn't happen. (and you might want to look at the psychoactive drugs laws they came up with- but not in this thread)

The legislation is clearly daft. It bans owning a fluorescent light bulb (Hg) or and LED one (As).

However there's still an interesting question about what would happen if you sent the Home Office an note saying "I seem to have been breaking the law for a while".
Is there any reason to imagine that they would be sympathetic?
It's a difficult call, but I'd keep my head down (especially since the UK is currently talking about banning sulphuric acid)

As for " im only guessing here but i think the point of this law is to prosecute drugs and explosive manufacturers. " well, I think you need to guess again.
Those activities were obviously already illegal. There would have been no need for further legislation.
The purpose of the laws was so that the Right wing politicians could claim that- unlike the Left- they were "tough on crime".
The laws are unworkable, but that's not the point. They never needed to be.

[Edited on 14-7-17 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 14-7-2017 at 09:53


I don't think they'd give you a permit necessarily, but I do think that they would help you dispose of illegal chemicals without charging you with a crime. That stated, it would be a good idea to get an attorney since unlike most civilized nations, the UK considers laws to have retroactive force.



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[*] posted on 14-7-2017 at 16:00


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
I know what I am talking about, and the proof of that is easily verified. But you go ahead and subject what I say to confirmation, whether it involves the reaction I described or anything else I have posted on this board.

You are welcome.

[Edited on 7/11/2017 by Rosco Bodine]

Hi
Sorry for the late reply- cock up with my log in and an old email address.
Just for the record the legislation referred to here was a product, not of the European union, but of the slightly deranged Conservative (i.e. Right wing) government who have no idea what science is, but want to make sure it doesn't happen. (and you might want to look at the psychoactive drugs laws they came up with- but not in this thread)


That is very strange. Usually it is liberal left "progressive" (socialist / communist) utopianists (actual dystopianists) ....group think "hive mind types" who are the ones clamoring for more laws and more regulations and fewer individual liberties, while imposing a social engineering agenda that encompasses all human endeavor, put under the despotic and tyrannical absolute control of a nanny state / police state that micromanages the lives of all "ordinary" citizens, usually at the same time fully exempting a "nobler" elite class from such burdensome "laws". That is largely already true all over the world right now as the present reality. What is the extent of liberty a person enjoys depends upon their wealth and means.
For many decades that has been the generality I have witnessed.

As Ringo Starr clearly observed, "Life is like a shit sandwich, the more bread you got, the less shit you have to eat".

Quote:

The legislation is clearly daft. It bans owning a fluorescent light bulb (Hg) or and LED one (As).

However there's still an interesting question about what would happen if you sent the Home Office an note saying "I seem to have been breaking the law for a while".
Is there any reason to imagine that they would be sympathetic?
It's a difficult call, but I'd keep my head down (especially since the UK is currently talking about banning sulphuric acid)

As for " im only guessing here but i think the point of this law is to prosecute drugs and explosive manufacturers. " well, I think you need to guess again.
Those activities were obviously already illegal. There would have been no need for further legislation.
The purpose of the laws was so that the Right wing politicians could claim that- unlike the Left- they were "tough on crime".
The laws are unworkable, but that's not the point. They never needed to be.

[Edited on 14-7-17 by unionised]


Trusting corrupt authority is a mistake. Generally the less others know about what you wisely may better choose to keep your own personal business, the better off you are.
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[*] posted on 14-7-2017 at 16:20


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  

That is very strange. Usually it is liberal left "progressive" (socialist / communist) utopianists (actual dystopianists) ....group think "hive mind types" who are the ones clamoring for more laws and more regulations and fewer individual liberties,
.

Forgive me for drifting from the topic, but...
No.
The liberal Left have noticed that freedoms and laws are two sides of the same coin.
My freedom to do [x] is a restriction of your freedom not to put up with the side effects of[x].
A law that restricts your freedom to kill is a law that grants me the freedom not to be killed.

But thanks for acknowledging that you can't trust a Right wing government to actually do what they said they would.



[Edited on 15-7-17 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 14-7-2017 at 17:01


Sure, no problem, I would be the first to acknowledge that excesses and dishonesty is found with zealots for both the far right and the far left and I don't like that hubris from either extreme.
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[*] posted on 16-7-2017 at 22:12


Does somebody know why oxalic acid is regulated?

Is it a common chemical in GB and people own a bigger amount or where there incidents, because oxalic acid is not so toxic in my opinion.

Bj68

[Edited on 17-7-2017 by BJ68]
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[*] posted on 16-7-2017 at 23:40


UK EPP legal limit for oxalic acid is 10% w/w, yet pure oxalic acid is still available via eBay uk.
I too wondered why it is illegal,
it would make an un-detectable slow poison - eventually causing kidney stones and renal failure that would seem natural,
I suspect/guess that oxalic acid has use as a selective reducing agent in some 'clandestine' syntheses as I've seen mention of it on the rhodium website.





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[*] posted on 17-7-2017 at 08:54


Dont try and do the right thing with banned substances, they will prosecute for ownership. Because of this 'find' some by say the road side and report a bottle of some unknown substance that looks funny.

Offer to wait by said bottle so police/whoever can find it. they send police first and close road, then fir brigade comes then a few hours later fire brigade sends incident unit.

Anyway a few hours after you report it its taken away and road is reopened, you are given a visit by police for a statement, where you say i was walking dg or whatever and saw the bottle/container as you had no idea what it was you felt it better to report it. You have no idea where it came from etc etc.

Or you can walk into a police station or waste disposal place, but they will ask questions and yes trust me they will prosecute you. Same now with airguns in Scotland, no amnesty exists. A couple who recently moved into the village found a old one in the shed when they moved in, they took it to the police station.

They have been reported to the procreator fiscal (like the English version of CPS), who will decide if they goto court, 99 times out of 100 it always goes to court. They havnt heard anything yet, but they will. No idea what the court will say or do, but now if this happened to me i would said airgun in a hedge and report it as above!!

England I admit isnt as tough as Scotland, but I know Bloggers had trouble in England and he never came back here to explain what happened, so i guess it wasnt good news.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2017 at 14:54


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  
... I know Bloggers had trouble in England and he never came back here to explain what happened, so i guess it wasnt good news.

blogfast25 is his own story. I am confident that no one knows what really happened; suffice to say that it seems no one involved had any real understanding of chemistry and no desire to keep things proportionate.
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[*] posted on 17-7-2017 at 14:58


Unionised; no it is legal to own things that contain As compounds, read my link on first post, specifically says that substances such as copper arsenite are legal. most leds and other electronics contain arsenic semiconductors which are clearly within the law to own. i also posted that the authorities are happy to take away "small" (but undefined) quantities of Hg, so that includes light bulbs.

NEMO-chemistry; i do appreciate what you are saying but my recent research (that i will share later) leads me to reach a different conclusion, but it is a work in progress. i have contacted one recycling centre outside of my area to discuss recycling Hg in larger quantities and they are quite happy with it.

Thanks everybody for all of the input. i will share my conclusions when i am more satisfied that they are correct :)
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[*] posted on 18-7-2017 at 09:37


Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose  
Unionised; no it is legal to own things that contain As compounds, read my link on first post, specifically says that substances such as copper arsenite are legal.

I read it.
It says"Arsenic and its compounds (other than calcium arsenites, copper acetoarsenite, copper arsenates, copper arsenites, lead arsenates)"
So, for example, copper arsenite is permitted.
Only the handful of compounds listed are exceptions to the rule that arsenic, and its compounds are banned.
Galium arsenide isn't on the list.
LEDs are banned (unless there's some other derogation somewhere).
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[*] posted on 18-7-2017 at 16:14


unionised, with the greatest of respect your are being facetious. the owning of LEDs is clearly legal and you are deliberately over simplifying an over complicated legal system. by the same logic you use we wouldn't be able to own a smoke detector because it contains Am which can undergo spontaneous fission and could be turned into a bomb.

(edited some grammar)

[Edited on 19-7-2017 by anonymoose]
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[*] posted on 18-7-2017 at 16:30


secondly, this just occurred to me im embarrassed to say (CBA to look up the thread to see who suggested this) if i reported a bottle of mercury that i "found" by the side of the road and reported as a passer by, the police would totally look me up and find my lab and get suspicious as hell, that is a retarded idea. whoever suggested that needs to have a good hard think about how police operate.
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[*] posted on 19-7-2017 at 01:28


Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose  
secondly, this just occurred to me im embarrassed to say (CBA to look up the thread to see who suggested this) if i reported a bottle of mercury that i "found" by the side of the road and reported as a passer by, the police would totally look me up and find my lab and get suspicious as hell, that is a retarded idea. whoever suggested that needs to have a good hard think about how police operate.


Don't worry... I'll come and get it some time in the next 2 months if you are that worried.. As I said - I will be down that way pretty soon for other reasons anyway and can pop in to arrest you, er, sorry, I mean to take it off your hands. ;-)




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[*] posted on 19-7-2017 at 13:09


Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose  
unionised, with the greatest of respect your are being facetious. the owning of LEDs is clearly legal and you are deliberately over simplifying an over complicated legal system. by the same logic you use we wouldn't be able to own a smoke detector because it contains Am which can undergo spontaneous fission and could be turned into a bomb.

(edited some grammar)

[Edited on 19-7-2017 by anonymoose]

The regs dont mention Am
It's not that I'm being facetious; it's that the legislation is extremely poorly framed. It seems to have been written in a hurry for political purposes.
The bits about poisons were rammed into this bizarre piece of legislation
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/20/contents/enacted...

If I'm wrong, show me where in the legislation the LED bulbs are exempted.
This bit might cover it, but I'd need to check with a lawyer.
For the purposes of this section, a substance or mixture is “excluded” if— (a) it is medicinal, or (b) it is contained in a specific object. ... (11) A “specific object” is— (a) an object that, during production, is given a special shape, surface or design that determines its function to a greater degree than does its chemical composition, ...
In particular, a broken LED lamp that no longer works would no longer be exempt.
It's a bit like the psychoactive substances act which bans sex and jogging because the Tories don't understand science.
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[*] posted on 19-7-2017 at 16:41


this thread is becoming derailed and it pisses me off.
consumer items that are legal to buy are legal to own when they go wrong.
the law is over complicated but having even the smallest of understanding of the law makes these things obvious.
to "own" any item that can be legally sold in the uk is a LEGAL ownership of said thing. this includes old barometers and a myriad of other things, antique or otherwise.
the question here is about the legality of the ownership of larger quantities of mercury on the order of kilograms.
for the record LEDs contain mostly legal semiconductors of arsenic.
light bulbs contain almost homeopathic quantities of Hg.
the authorities have told me that that are happy to deal with "small quantities" of Hg. thus the legality of these things and their disposal is not questionable.
you are either being facetious or daft. i hope the former.
UK law is retarded but it does follow a self continuous logic. your comments contain only a reaction against chemophobia, which i understand, but is wrong.
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[*] posted on 19-7-2017 at 16:44


in my student days i had lawyer friends, trust me, your argument is just silly
(edit;ps i mentioned Am as an attempt to point out the redundancy of your comment. it would take 8x10^8 (number found in my ass) smoke detectors to build a bomb, and a similar number of light bulbs to find a visible quantity of Hg. the chemical composition of LEDs are such that it would take a genius with twenty trillion LEDs to make a visible quantity of As (given losses). and that would result in a pile of plastic that would dwarf the great Pacific gyre.
these things are legal for those reasons)

[Edited on 20-7-2017 by anonymoose]
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[*] posted on 7-8-2017 at 07:16


Just a quick thanks to the OP for posting that link.

I've only recently started back into the amateur chemistry world and have been wondering about my legal status should the authorities become aware of my activities.

As it goes I'm already in breach of several rules/regulations regarding possession of explosive precursors.

And although they were all prepared at home (not purchased) I'm wondering what to do...

I don't mind paying the 40 notes for a licence if it means I'm no longer breaking the law.

And I think I have a reasonable chance of acquiring said licence. But..... If I apply and get turned down.. Have I just notified the authorities of something they might never have known about in the first instance...?

I'm no terrorist or even a terrorist sympathiser. I have no wish to blow up people or buildings. I'm just a regular guy with an interest in things that go BANG!!!

Gonna have to give this some thought... If there are any other UK members who have an insight into the licence procurement/possession process I'd greatly appreciate your input folks..?

Best regards
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[*] posted on 7-8-2017 at 11:50


Quote:
But..... If I apply and get turned down.. Have I just notified the authorities of something they might never have known about in the first instance...?


They will refuse but you'll be on their radar forever.

Be like Dad ─ keep Mum!

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[*] posted on 3-11-2017 at 16:55


Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose  
Unionised; no it is legal to own things that contain As compounds, read my link on first post, specifically says that substances such as copper arsenite are legal. most leds and other electronics contain arsenic semiconductors which are clearly within the law to own. i also posted that the authorities are happy to take away "small" (but undefined) quantities of Hg, so that includes light bulbs.

NEMO-chemistry; i do appreciate what you are saying but my recent research (that i will share later) leads me to reach a different conclusion, but it is a work in progress. i have contacted one recycling centre outside of my area to discuss recycling Hg in larger quantities and they are quite happy with it.

Thanks everybody for all of the input. i will share my conclusions when i am more satisfied that they are correct :)


Then your living in Devon for sure, they have recycle centers that are run by non council staff.

They will take anything that makes money lol. But generally anything else illegal chemical wise and isnt metallic...... Dont try it.

I am willing to bet post code wont be far off EX2
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[*] posted on 15-12-2017 at 16:43


Well as i said, i have done research outside of my area so feel free to conjecture but hypotheses are often false.
PS I have had a lot of (crappy) real life stuff going on so sorry for the massive delay in posting. hope everyone is ok :)

(edit; adding detail to make this post less pointless)

i have found a new link that further clarifies/muddies the law...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

in this link it describes how some chemicals that would be "regulated" substances in the previous link are now lesser "reportable" substances, which i read as being "dodgy but not illegal as such" including acetone etc which is readily available and clearly not banned, but could be used to make explosives.

interestingly the latter group includes mercuric chloride/iodide for some reason.

thats all the research ive done since last post because life has thrown me a few turds to dodge.

[Edited on 16-12-2017 by anonymoose]
(edited typo, CBA with grammar tonight, im tired)

[Edited on 16-12-2017 by anonymoose]
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[*] posted on 15-12-2017 at 18:26


Quote: Originally posted by anonymoose  
Well as i said, i have done research outside of my area so feel free to conjecture but hypotheses are often false.
PS I have had a lot of (crappy) real life stuff going on so sorry for the massive delay in posting. hope everyone is ok :)

(edit; adding detail to make this post less pointless)

i have found a new link that further clarifies/muddies the law...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...

in this link it describes how some chemicals that would be "regulated" substances in the previous link are now lesser "reportable" substances, which i read as being "dodgy but not illegal as such" including acetone etc which is readily available and clearly not banned, but could be used to make explosives.

interestingly the latter group includes mercuric chloride/iodide for some reason.

thats all the research ive done since last post because life has thrown me a few turds to dodge.

[Edited on 16-12-2017 by anonymoose]
(edited typo, CBA with grammar tonight, im tired)

[Edited on 16-12-2017 by anonymoose]



I am in Scotland, its very different up here to England, especially the south west! If you read the other thread i have contacted the police, they still havnt got back to me.

Long story short i have opened a registered company (not going to trade much, maybe soap) But it will help with me doing 'research'.
The difference in legal systems between England and Scotland is huge, I wrote about the side of the road thing, up here that would be the best way....

Well would of been, things change once you become legit by the look of it, take a read of the other thread, it affects England more than Scotland. ALL legit Chem suppliers are now submitting sales reports to the police, the list of chemicals include MANY items not on any controlled list yet.

I am told this is the new proactive approach to terrorism, its one reason I have now come out the woodwork, that and the simple fact I want to learn, i want to do it properly and that means being legal.

I did look up Bloggers case, i wont pass comment except to say its a good example that the police are not taking it lightly.
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