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Author: Subject: UK ARRESTS - kno3.com - user Kerry-Ann Shanks
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[*] posted on 31-1-2007 at 04:26
UK ARRESTS - kno3.com - user Kerry-Ann Shanks


Posted today on BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/6316...
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[*] posted on 31-1-2007 at 04:30
Just a matter of time


If you sell Red P and other List 1 items to buyers in the US you're going to end up in court.

Joe
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[*] posted on 31-1-2007 at 10:55


A couple of other stories about this...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_cent...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_cent...
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[*] posted on 31-1-2007 at 17:09


Where does it say it is KNO3.com? The website is still up...



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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 02:47


Quote:
Originally posted by chemoleo
Where does it say it is KNO3.com? The website is still up...


Her relation to it was noted and (if it was indeed her that posted under her name) acknowledged in the relevant thread. The site is specifically mentioned by the DEA report on their site.
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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 05:01


Taking away any doubts on this:

http://www.dea.gov/pubs/states/newsrel/phnx013007.html
http://www.dea.gov/pubs/states/newsrel/phnx013007.pdf

Apparently they really were involved in the meth-business. According to the article they did more than just selling a few chemicals, they also found recipes for making meth in the company office of kno3.com.

I have the idea that the other chems they sold were there just to make it look a little less suspicious. I have the feeling that their real business was the red P and iodine. I must, however, admit that the other chems were real. I ordered 500 grams of hydrated NaClO4 from them and they did deliver that.

According to the administration, more than 319 kilo (!!!) of red P was sold to US-based customers, and they apparently had connections with meth-labs in Arizona.

I'm quite sure that quite a few fellow chemistry hobbyists have ordered chems from kno3.com, but that was not their real business... again a case, which puts chemistry in a bad perspective :(.

[Edited on 1-2-07 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 05:54


Sure - they should have just been left alone to sell all the drug material they could. In fact it is just research afterall and no one is getting hurt.

I'm sorry but we all know what is illegal and what is not. If you want to experiment with illegal substances then there is a route for you to get the required qualifications for this type of research. If you want to make meth or sell listed precursors don't be surprised if you get a knock at the door. It is that simple.

Joe

[Edited on 1-2-2007 by joeflsts]
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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 06:03


in light of the last link Woelen provided, they deserve what`s coming to them.

I was up until reading that link somewhat against what had been done to them, Now...




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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 06:26


They're not getting any sympathy from me. They deserve what they've got coming and then some if they're knowingly supplying meth labs.



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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 11:52


"i take they aren't uk citizens? "
Why?
Those reports include these quotes.
"Earlier Mr Howes, originally from Middlesbrough, was taken back to his Bo'ness home by police in handcuffs while they searched the property. "
"A British couple could face 20 years in a US jail after being arrested "
Also, trust me, if the news media could have labeled these folk as "Foreign!" they would have done.


[Edited on 1-2-2007 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 12:37


How can a seller be held responsible for a buyer's actions? I have a lot of trouble with that concept.



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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 14:18


I suppose its not the selling of chemicals but conspiracy to manufacture.
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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 14:24


Quote:
Originally posted by woelen
Apparently they really were involved in the meth-business. According to the article they did more than just selling a few chemicals, they also found recipes for making meth in the company office of kno3.com.

... and they apparently had connections with meth-labs in Arizona.


These "connections" are nothing more than buyers of their RP using it to reduce ephedrine to methamphetamine. Who knows what this "recipe" might actually be, exactly?

Of course they were selling RP and I to the USA because of the profitability of doing so. Why shouldn't they? You really think that we in the USA should not be allowed to have them?
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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 14:50


I wish there were a world without meth, and of course, every hobby chemist should have the fun of playing with I2 and red P. These are cool chems and it is a pity that they are so paranoid on these chems in the USA.

But _given the current climate_ I personally think it is not very wise of those people to do what they did. Just some little math:

They sold 319 kilo of red P to the USA. Their price tag was appr. GBP 17 per 100 gram, or GBP 100 per kilo. What would be their profit per kilo? A few tens of pounds, maybe 50? Then they only could gain around GBP 15000 or so with the selling of the red P. A fraction of this money could be made from the selling of 30 kilo of iodine. So, they risked many years of prison for maybe GBP 20000 over a period of 3 years. In my opinion not very wise...

Of course, they also sold other chems, but I have the impression that the bulk of their sales was from red P and iodine, the rest was just there to make it look a little bit more legit. I frequently watched their site and they did a lot of explicit advertising for red P and iodine (still there is a moving banner for a special offer on iodine crystals). They always have been quite loud and present on the Internet, telling about the "discreet" delivery of iodine and red P all over the world, explicitly mentioning the USA. They never had such presentation of their other chemicals.

So, I have ambivalent feelings about this. It is sad that again a source of chemicals has gone (although their choice was limited, they had some interesting things), but they must certainly have known that most red P, sold to the USA, was used for meth-cooking.




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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 14:59


What I find bizarre is that they are citizens of the UK, living in the UK, apparently being extradited for selling items that are controlled only in the US. Are they accused of committing these crimes during the time they were living in Cleveland? If not, this seems as weird as (say) extraditing American gun dealers, living in America, for violating British gun laws.



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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 16:08


AFAIK "Cleveland" refers to the county/area in England, not Ohio.
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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 20:51


Quote:
Originally posted by Polverone
What I find bizarre is that they are citizens of the UK, living in the UK, apparently being extradited for selling items that are controlled only in the US. Are they accused of committing these crimes during the time they were living in Cleveland? If not, this seems as weird as (say) extraditing American gun dealers, living in America, for violating British gun laws.

Dito. That's also what struck me as odd.
What is the rationale of delivering UK citizens to US prisons even though they were resident in the UK at the time of the 'crime'? Is it, being sent to a US prison, even more of a punishment than being sent to a UK prison???? Certainly sounds to me like extradition is being used as an added threat and punishment. Disgusting.
Also, they seemingly sold lots of pyro chems, but noone batted an eyelid? Isn't it the fault of the meth producers rather than that of the sellers what is done with these chems? Isn't the sweet old argument 'it's not he gun that kills, it's the evildoer who uses it'? Or, 'guns don't kill, people do'? It is such hypocrisy it's appalling.

Why are they being scapegoated as villains, while the 'real' villains are way elsewhere?
I just dont get it.
AGain, it strikes me as rooting out the symptoms rather than the cause. And the sellers are certainly not the cause. It's the people who buy the drugs! It's human nature to try out drugs! Arrest them, and see how far this gets!

My 2 cent!

This DEA site is appalling. I am no lover of THC or anything, but 35 years of prison for a hundred hemp (sp) plants just seems *utterly* ridiculous, particularly if you consider the reasoning behind the severe punishment. Simple cigarette smoking, drinking, breathing in car exhausts, general environment/industrial chemicals, are probably equally or more toxic than THC. Read it. They make it sound like weed growers are devil's incarnation.
What is all this about?
In summary...it just shouldnt be that sale of chemicals is a criminal act. It's the people (consumers) who abuse it, and keep doing so. It's human nature. Then, punish the consumers, if society so desires, they are the true villains - if the consumers didnt want it, there'd be never a need for people synthesising it, nor people selling these nasty chems.
Punish the consumers, not the suppliers! That's the only consistent way forward!

PS looking forward to a good bit of flaming-warring :)




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[*] posted on 1-2-2007 at 21:24


Woelen, it may say that on the DEA site, but really I bet the owners of KNO3 would have completly known about what they sold would/could be used for and would eliminate any evidence on their side that would connect them with things they are not doing. Just makes business sense if they want to keep making money while not being in jail. In other words I doubt that many of their(DEA) statements are fact.

Hell, I have no love for drugs at all (other than the perscription that keeps my acid reflux down), but I can see this is way overboard. Just another instance of government messing where they shouldent. Really, screw the drug war and legalize it all, let Darwin sort it out:P When people start flopping over dead from abuse, what better deterrent to others from trying them in the first place!:D

Chemoleo you are right about how in some areas the US punishes the consumer, and in others the seller. Like in the gun quote. But are you not being a little hippocritical yourself? I could have sworn you were pro gun control(correct me if I am wrong), and then you say not to punish sellers of precursors:P




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[*] posted on 2-2-2007 at 04:49


Quote:
Originally posted by The_Davster
Woelen, it may say that on the DEA site, but really I bet the owners of KNO3 would have completly known about what they sold would/could be used for and would eliminate any evidence on their side that would connect them with things they are not doing. Just makes business sense if they want to keep making money while not being in jail. In other words I doubt that many of their(DEA) statements are fact.

Hell, I have no love for drugs at all (other than the perscription that keeps my acid reflux down), but I can see this is way overboard. Just another instance of government messing where they shouldent. Really, screw the drug war and legalize it all, let Darwin sort it out:P When people start flopping over dead from abuse, what better deterrent to others from trying them in the first place!:D

Chemoleo you are right about how in some areas the US punishes the consumer, and in others the seller. Like in the gun quote. But are you not being a little hippocritical yourself? I could have sworn you were pro gun control(correct me if I am wrong), and then you say not to punish sellers of precursors:P


Excellent post. Until Americans elect people that reflect our views, the "drug war" is here to stay. Every headline is necessary in order to match or increase next years budget. I am in agreement with you that the Darwin approach is the best approach.

Joe

[Edited on 2-2-2007 by joeflsts]
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[*] posted on 3-2-2007 at 03:35


Help unban red phosphorus! Bring back reductive amination! :D

Quote:
Originally posted by The_Davster
Really, screw the drug war and legalize it all, let Darwin sort it out:P When people start flopping over dead from abuse, what better deterrent to others from trying them in the first place!:D


The "problem" with that is before the war on drugs, addicts where healthy, normal people, who had families, where socially responsible and basically exhibited none of the evils attributed to drug addiction these days. Somehow the Harrison Act avoided leaving when prohibition was repealed though, and now we have this whole pile of steaming shit.
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[*] posted on 3-2-2007 at 13:04


yup conspiracy laws seem to be the biggest danger here. like a whole heap of us meth labs with kno3 products and very very helpfull us-british extradition treaties. conspiracy to manufacture meth is a crime in the uk to
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2131&a...
bottom of the thread

spooky huh
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[*] posted on 4-2-2007 at 14:08


I've been following all this in the paper - firstly they are well off in a previous blog Kerry ann states they made $500K in 12 months. secondly I hope it all blows over and I think that although she should have thought about it at the time there are 4 little girls without a mum right now and although what they have done is illegal in US they must have had to stick to guidlines in this country. however get this - In July after the bust KNO3 goes bust due to adverse publicity anderson comes in to front new company under a different name which is fine however the company address is a solicitors in glasgow
and the business is being done from a funeral parlour - If you have a company licensed to sell chemicals why not have proper permises ??
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[*] posted on 4-2-2007 at 22:55
Too fucking bad!


I have a hard time with people who apologize for some of the most repressive, ill-conceived legislation this country (The former US), has ever been under. This is prohibition and witch hunting all over and whether these folks were careless or making the big A or whatever, it's still a crying shame. Britain is another repressive, colonialist fucking police state. Try being Irish or owning a gun. So its hardly surprising the two most repressive governments in the English speaking universe are cooperating.

I claim that meth is more harmful than it would be mainly because the people making it are unskilled and not motivated to making a good product. I say put the shit on the shelf and let the cards fall where they may; just like booze, the most harmful drug of all. I don't use either but strenuously object to anyone mothering me about my consumptions.

Shulgin lost his license and was subjected to a Cal EPA witch hunt for publishing his procedures in a user friendly format. I like Fester's approach, let's get the list so long it's meaningless. Meanwhile chemistry outside a school or major pharmaeutical lab is damned near illegal.
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[*] posted on 4-2-2007 at 23:04
One more thing


Another thing, they were supposed to have had a recipe or book on making meth? This is incriminating? phenylisopropylamines are simple compounds whose syntheses are so basic that they contain many broadly applicable procedures. I would guess that a majority of folks here have or have had a method or two stashed away somewhere. There was even a contest one year on adc that Dan Haney coordinated.
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[*] posted on 5-2-2007 at 07:16


Quote:
Originally posted by chemrox
Another thing, they were supposed to have had a recipe or book on making meth? This is incriminating? phenylisopropylamines are simple compounds whose syntheses are so basic that they contain many broadly applicable procedures. I would guess that a majority of folks here have or have had a method or two stashed away somewhere. There was even a contest one year on adc that Dan Haney coordinated.


I would say that it is incriminating. It isn't an immediate path to being guilty however. Having the instructions isn't illegal. Having the instructions with the material isn't illegal. Making the material is illegal, in some countries without proper credentials.

What is going to hurt these two is that hey knowingly sold restricted material to residents of a country that considers it an illegal practice. Had they been in North Korea or Iran I suspect they would be getting thier Country's highest honor right now.

Joe


Joe
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