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mfilip62
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[*] posted on 10-2-2007 at 12:20
Fuel-Air Explosives


Hy folks,
Recently I was trying to create an fireball with
an 1 dl of gas and 100-200g of dinamite!

There was no fireball butt presure,destruction and noise was unproportionall with the amount of explosive!
Washing machine,my victim,litteraly disapeard!

I DO NOT know if i accidentally make a Fuel-Air Explosive
butt please checked this video,and please answer my on some questiones!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9xCgNdZPKk

1.)How long is delay between those 2 detonations!
(starting det. and "detonating" det.)

2.)Exacly which fuel does he used!(benzine,ether...or?)

3.)I think that both explosives must be with very
positive OB,an second one must make greater heat or flame!
Cann I use open fire burner instead of second explosive!?!?!?

Please help me someone!
That looks like a lot of fun!

P.S.;Sorry for my bad english!
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[*] posted on 10-2-2007 at 13:11


Your third question clearly indicates that you don't have a clue about the principles behind a FAE. The timing between the two charges is very critical and can probably only be reliably done with EBW firing + additional electronics for the timeinterval. The timeinterval between the two detonations further depends on the size of the charge and the fuel used and moreover are there only a subset of difficult obtainable fuels that will work reliably...

How interesting FAE's may be, it remains to be seen if a further discussion will be allowed anyway, especially seen your other posts...

[Edited on 10-2-2007 by nitro-genes]
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mfilip62
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[*] posted on 11-2-2007 at 09:22


I understand that,butt why cant I just simply use open flame!!!

Try to mesaure time betwen two detonations(Aurora program...),and it seems to be around 20ms!
I think that this is definitly 20ms becouse there are electric detonators with delay of 20ms to buy,I have 3 of those det.!

Looks like you didnt understand the question!!!
I was asking for that explosion on the video clip precisely,not generally!!!

And I dont see what is wrong with mine 3. question!
Logically,if FAE has wery negativ OB and it uses oxygen from the air to burst,I think that first one,"spreading" explosive may bee
some with OB!
You understand,so that fuel uses that oxigen as well as atmospheric,becouse,if firs explosive has negative OB,there is no oxygen for aerosol fuel!
Do You understand!?

And does anyone know which one mixure is fuel!?

Thanks
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[*] posted on 11-2-2007 at 09:32


Oh yes,and there is no need for some special electronic like EBW firing you can just use two detonators,(one instant and one with delay)
wierd them parallel,and make contact with 9V dry cell battery!

Belive me,maybe you cann find in some blasters manuals not to use baterryes,butt that worth yust for large amount of caps(5+),
I am doung so for many years and it NEVER misfire!
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[*] posted on 11-2-2007 at 11:45


for a start Why use "dinamite"? AND why so much?

if you want a One-Pot type use something like BP and bag of fuel in a pot, BP underneath.
if you want to use Gas then use a thin can gas container and put the charge on the top of it, YES ON THE TOP!
not under it. you`ll need something a little more pokey than BP though, Flash powder charges are good, be sure to add some coarser grain material in the mix as this will stay hot enough for longer.

and be SURE to do this well away from people or property and give yourself More than enough time to get away safely.




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[*] posted on 11-2-2007 at 12:44


Quote:
Originally posted by mfilip62
I understand that,butt why cant I just simply use open flame!!!


Because the fuel/air cloud doesn't behave as a sensitive primary explosive so can't make DDT upon ignition by flame. For example, TNT will burn nice and quietly when molten and exposed to flame though it will never detonate. The fuel cloud behaves similary insensitive and it's sensitivity will quickly drop even further when the mixture is too rich in fuel (too early) or too rich in air (too late). The reason is that the atmosphere only contains 21% oxygen, if it were composed of 100% oxygen things would have been much easier! The large amount of inert N2 absorps a lot of the heat liberated from the detonation, making it very insensitive. Furthermore, the fuel is dispersed as a fine mist, but still, these droplets have a very large size compared to the intramolecular distances between fuel and oxidizer like that in regular HE's.Some fuels allow a larger time frame than others, but in general the sensitivity of mixtures with gasoline are so insensitive that they will not detonate reliably even in a EBW fired professional setup, this is why they use other fuels or oxidizer additives to complement the fuel. ...

This was the third question I was refering to btw, I mean why would they use two charges with precisely determined delays if some romantic candle light would have done the same? :P

Quote:
Originally posted by mfilip62Try to mesaure time betwen two detonations(Aurora program...),and it seems to be around 20ms!


Amazing what people can accomplish if you stimulate them a bit! :D

Quote:
Originally posted by mfilip62You understand,so that fuel uses that oxigen as well as atmospheric,becouse,if firs explosive has negative OB,there is no oxygen for aerosol fuel!


Hehe, even in very oxygen balanced explosives like ETN or NG, how much oxygen will avialable on a weight basis? Remember that the fuel outweighs the explosive 100 times and would need a further 4-5 times that weight of oxygen in order to combust all the fuel completely! So the oxygen balance of the explosive is really not important...

Quote:
Originally posted by mfilip62Oh yes,and there is no need for some special electronic like EBW firing you can just use two detonators,(one instant and one with delay)
wierd them parallel,and make contact with 9V dry cell battery!


Yes, I use electric firing on occasion as well. :) A simple ignitor may look like it fires imidiately, though on a ms scale I'm quite sure two ignitors may be worlds apart! Ever used an slightly more empty battery? You will see that this difference becomes even larger, some fire after seconds, others far under a second. The more juice you pump into the ignitor, the faster and more reliably it will respond, with EBW firing beeing the upper limit...

I wouldn't mind you proving me wrong though! :D

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 11-2-2007 at 20:50


I recommend you use Epoxy ethane[AKA ethylene oxide] C2H4O or the propylene variant. This fuel should be much easier to ignite than gasoline. However it is a hell of a lot more toxic and if you aren't able to get the epoxy ethane to detonate then you will have a large toxic cloud of death.

Anywho a fireball and a fae are two different things.
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[*] posted on 12-2-2007 at 11:34


Quote:
Originally posted by nitro-genes

Yes, I use electric firing on occasion as well. :) A simple ignitor may look like it fires imidiately, though on a ms scale I'm quite sure two ignitors may be worlds apart! Ever used an slightly more empty battery? You will see that this difference becomes even larger, some fire after seconds, others far under a second. The more juice you pump into the ignitor, the faster and more reliably it will respond, with EBW firing beeing the upper limit...

I wouldn't mind you proving me wrong though! :D

[Edited on 11-2-2007 by nitro-genes]


I done a bit research on that!
Those comercial detonatorsa are wery wery sensitive,
and eawen the slightles curent will detonate them instantly!
However,mine homemade detonators have some delay,and I often linked one instant and one homemade to make delay betwen 2 detonations!
And the best thing is to conect 2 9V baterryes together serially(stick them together with the duch tape,and conect one + with one -,and you will see how strong it becames!)

O.K. I must explain you spmething about comercial detonators,if you have 2 or more detonators conected paralel
some of them have dellay and some of them do not!
Now when you pass curent trught them they WILL all be ignited at the same moment,those instant and those with dellay,butt those instant will explode instantly,and those with dellay will have their retardators ignited and will explode afther some time!Understand me!
Cousin of mine was working in explosive factory,soo you hardlly can beat that!(Yust jocking:P)
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[*] posted on 12-2-2007 at 13:10


Quote:
Originally posted by mfilip62
Cousin of mine was working in explosive factory,soo you hardlly can beat that!


I've been cleaning floors in a bread factory as a student, still know shit about baking bread though... :D (just kidding)

I didn't know you were talking about commercial delay detonators btw, they would be far more reliable than any homemade ones I guess. Still it wouldn't be an easy job, be sure to capture it on video if you make any attempts!

For fuels you would like a broad mixture range with air in which the fuel cloud is still able to detonate.

-->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_limit

Propylene oxide(l) is about 2-36% and ethylene oxide(g) is 3-100%, probably due to explosive polymerization, just like vinyl compounds can do. In practise they use a mixture of both because ethylene oxide alone also polymerizes on storage and has an extremely high vapour pressure due to is low boiling point (10 deg C). The mixture is probably a trade off between detonability and energy since ethylene oxide is partly oxidized having an oxygen attached, so proplene oxide would release more energy on a weight basis than ethylene oxide. Looking at l.e.l. and u.e.l. it turns out that there are only a few fuels that are usable, with diethyl ether beeing the best option considering explosive limits (equals propylene oxide) and energy release, although obtaining a few liters for an experiment would be both costly and difficult. Methanol has the same explosive limits in air as ether does, though would release substantial less energy on a weight basis due to the carbon beeing already partly oxidized. Ethanol would possibly be the only real OTC options for an FAE with one fuel compound, though this is rarely found without any water. Water having an extremely large specific heat would take up a lot of heat from the detonation, making the fuel cloud possibly much less sensitive then with anhydrous ethanol...

I've also read about additives like butyl nitrite and propyl nitrate beeing added to regular gasoline too make them usefull as a fuel, though it needed high percentages of them (10-20%) which would make things much more costly and laborous. Methanol or ethanol with 5-10% of nitromethane could work as well as a simple and easily made mixture. A real easy additive to sensitise hydrocarbon fuels would be nitric acid, though most of the fuels are either incompatible with that or do not dissolve. Some perchlorate and nitrate salts would make nice additives as well, as I know for sure that at least some of them can dissolve pretty good in ethanol or methanol...

[Edited on 13-2-2007 by nitro-genes]
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mfilip62
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[*] posted on 13-2-2007 at 09:29


You theory sounds perfect butt it is still a teory!!!!
I understand that you want to help, butt posting souch theoretic science factscan only led us to confusion!
Firstly leave or ignore chemicals like ethylene oxide,Propylene oxide,extremly sensitive,poisonous and expensive materials alone becouse we mortals will never be able to eaven see one fo those! RIGHT!?
For example i never saw nitromethane or concetrated nitric acid in my life butt I still use a lott of explosives!
There is nowhere to buy NM in my country,and you cann only steal 30+ years old nitric acid in the school!

Butt you cann pretty easily make anhydrous ethanol!
Yust buy 94-96% ethanol or wery wery strong fire water we call
"prvina"(that is redestiled greape fire wather:D)
and putt some chunk of Calcium Oxyde(CaO) in it!
And that is that!

If you find some FAE mixtures with rates plase post them!

P.S:How do you make your homemade electric detonators!

[Edited on 13-2-2007 by mfilip62]
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[*] posted on 13-2-2007 at 11:38


Quote:
Originally posted by nitro-genes
Propylene oxide(l) is about 2-36% and ethylene oxide(g) is 3-100%, probably due to explosive polymerization, just like vinyl compounds can do.


Can then ethylene oxide be detonated in the liquid form (it would not really detonate but undergo an explosive polimerization)?




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[*] posted on 13-2-2007 at 16:16


Quote:
Originally posted by mfilip62
You theory sounds perfect butt it is still a teory!!!!
I understand that you want to help, butt posting souch theoretic science factscan only led us to confusion!
Firstly leave or ignore chemicals like ethylene oxide,Propylene oxide,extremly sensitive,poisonous and expensive materials alone becouse we mortals will never be able to eaven see one fo those! RIGHT!?
For example i never saw nitromethane or concetrated nitric acid in my life butt I still use a lott of explosives!
There is nowhere to buy NM in my country,and you cann only steal 30+ years old nitric acid in the school!


Maybe you can steal a couple of liters of ethylene or propylene oxide from your junior highschool, I'm sure they will have it stocked up by the gallons for FAE demonstrations to pupils and for making mustard gas...

I merely tried to give my thoughts about the possible fuels usable for FAE in the hope to get some meaningfull opinions of others and start a discussion about it on this discussionboard. If this is all too much for you, I'll stop discussing it and you can start experimenting with them right away without thinking about concequences, availability or possible flaws of your method...:P
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 01:38


How about acetylene ? It has a very broad span from LEL to UEL, large energy content and is very brisant even if just ignited by flame. Acetylene tanks ( so dissolved in acetone under pressure ) have been used in terrorist attacks in the past although on a quite large scale.
I have been toying with the idea that maybe a brisant HE could be used to pulverize a block of CaC2 and mix it with water to release a cloud of acetylene, which would then be detonated. The time delay would need to be longer, and maybe it wouldn't work at all ( maybe the CaC2 isn't reduced to sufficiently fine dust ), but only a series of experiments will tell.
I won't be making the experiment myself due to the necessarily large scale, but if someone else could I would like to hear about it.
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 07:25


Yeah,acetilene looks like good idea!
I have better one,butt it will be too expensive,too powerfool and will probably brought police to you door!

When You use Oxygen/acetilene burner optimal spending
ratio is around 2 bottles of acetilene(etin) per one bottle of oxygen!
So You buy 2 bottles of etine and 1 bottle of oxygen,put some plastic explosive betwen them and viola!!!
You probably dont even need second charge to acomplish full detonation!

Second idea is that you try with H2O!
Do the same thing with bottles of oxygen and hydrogen or to electrolyse H2O,
then,compress H2 and O2 in to the one bottle
with compressor,and then detonate that bottle!
Butt I probably think that compresing H2 and O2 together
is wery wery dangerous!
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 07:38


Quote:
Originally posted by Zinc
Can then ethylene oxide be detonated in the liquid form (it would not really detonate but undergo an explosive polimerization)?


Polymerization reactions can be exothermic and fast enough to self ignite, it needs catalyst or so to become really violent though it will never resemble a real detonation. The epoxide bonds are very stressed, just like the short and electron crowded tripple bond of acetylene or the bonds from small cyclic alkanes like cylcopropane or butane. These bonds need less energy to be broken and can release a lot more energy when they form more stable bonds with oxygen or even another molecule like itself. That is why these fuels can violently polymerize and can detonate in higher concentrations in the air...

I thought about the calciumcarbide/water mixture as well. since acetylene is a gas and can make DDT in very small amounts with oxygen, the resulting gascloud probably wouldn't even need a second charge to detonate at all, like is needed for aerosolic fuels. One brisant charge to both pulverize the calciumcarbide and ignite the gascloud by adding some coarse aluminium powder would have the advantage that the delay provided by the calcium carbide to react with the water may provide a mixture with air that is able to make DDT. One of the downsides is that the reaction of calciumcarbide with water yields only a 25 weight percentage of acetylene as the other 75% is made up by the formed calcium hydroxide, what makes the energy yield from a weight perspective about as efficient as conventional explosives...

[Edited on 14-2-2007 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 08:16


Quote:
Originally posted by mfilip62
Yeah,acetilene looks like good idea!
I have better one,butt it will be too expensive,too powerfool and will probably brought police to you door!


Surely someone that has made enough ANFO to blow up a car will not worry about the police in front of his door over some gas explosion. Which have absolutely nothing to do with fuel/air explosions btw...

The more powerfool the better eh? :D

[Edited on 14-2-2007 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 10:19


When I looked over the numbers some time ago ( on the HE/carbide/water system ), I found like you did that it would be about as energetic on a weight basis as regular HEs. However, if it worked as envisioned, it would be a quite cheap method for generating large explosions if a high brisance wasn't needed.
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 10:32


I agree with you nitro-genes butt when you buy
presurized gas here you actually just rent gas container!
If you destroy it or blow it up....you have wery long procedure to go trought,first you must have some personal ID to rent it,if you want to buy etine,you must have in writing proof that you are able to handle with that kind of material,(and allmoust for every kind of gas!),report the status of container
every 3-6 months(depending on the tipe of gas) to the company,and if you "lost" it, they report that to the police...
and then starts real problems!!!
You must know that lawsuits here endure for ages,
bureaucracy is insane,and coruption...
I dont want that kind of charade,that is for sure...

I know what I am talking about!!!!

It is probably becouse Al-Queda attack killing few persons
and destoying police station 1994.!
(Stupid moslems from Bosnia!)

Only potential hazardous chemical that is not restricted is KAN,
(AN/CaCO3/MgCO3)chamical fertilizer,and H2O2 which is semi restricted!

It is paradoxically that mine country is full of explosives left after war,and some stupid idiot put ban on chemicals!
(Butt you must agree that a lot of explosiwes left is not such bad thing:D)

Belive me that explosion of C2H2/O2 mixture is anything butt
ordinary gas explosion!I saw it once!
It actually erase EWERITHING on it way!
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 10:42


Does the carbide react fast enough with the water to build up a acetylene clowd? The carbide must be grind very well for this, but if you grind carbide in a ball mill, you have to use dry air in your container, if not the carbide dust will react with H2O. Maybe a better idea would be to solidify acetylene in a LN2 cold trap and place this acetylene "snow" around the booster charge. As it explodes, it will be finely distributed and the acetylene will take up the heat of the sourounding air and vaporise. This will happen much faster than the reaction between carbide and water, for this, the water and carbide need to be well mixed in the few milliseconds of explosion. If someone tries it with carbide, a good option would be to leave away the water around the chare and try it at a rainy day.
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 12:03


Lol, just for fun calculated the optimum humidity of water vapour in the air to be stoichiometric with the amount of oxygen for the formed acetylene to combust with. Though even with a relative humidity of 100% at 20 deg. C. (20 grams of water per m3 of air) there is still a 7 fold excess of oxygen compared to the water, or 1.2% of acetylene in air, which is lower than it's l.e.l.. So unfortunately enough this is not going to work without any water added, air just can't hold enough water, even at higher temperatures...:)

I doubt that even a very brisant charge could pulverize a 100 times it's weight of rockhard CaC2 into a very fine powder anyway...

[Edited on 14-2-2007 by nitro-genes]
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[*] posted on 14-2-2007 at 17:57


One of the best places to look for material of this sort is "Fire Science" text books for undergrad arson investigation...some of it is really indepth.



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[*] posted on 15-2-2007 at 10:39


If you try to grind carbide you will definitly spoil it!
I tried once to putt grinded carbide inside tea bags,
so I can have instant potato gun "powder",butt it reacted
with H2O in the air instantly and become CaO or something....
Weather was wery dry,and grinder was hermetically closed!

So there is no question that it will rapidly "become" acetilene,butt how fast it depends on;
afther explosion,how much of explosive pertially becomes hot steam and that definitely is some kind of catslyst and how wet weather is!
be carefull,Iwish You luck!

P.S.;What if you crush it under benzin or something and make organic solvent/carbide paste or slurry mixture! Interesting?!
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[*] posted on 8-3-2009 at 14:38


Why not try to put finely grinded carbide around an ordinary explosive? Two cans in each other, explosive in the center can, and fine carbide powder in the bigger can.
When the explosive goes off the water vapour from the detonation gas will go through the carbide and produce acetylene at the same time.
A lof of options...
But the result will be more thermobaric...if it works,,
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[*] posted on 8-3-2009 at 21:02


This post may not belong if not my apologys.

Just a thought but has anyone looked at reports of coal dust explosions in mining accidents and grain dust explosions occuring in grain handling facilitys?

The requirements/conditions for detonation versus deflagration are very well documented with extensive testing
determining optimum concentrations/specific materials even specific type of coal which will detonate rather than simply deflagrate.As anyone who was alive back in the '70's will attest particularly us midwesterners is that a grain dust explosion can be extremely destructive,crushing reinforced concrete structures with impunity.I would suppose flour
with its large nitrogen content would work as well if not better than grain dust fines.Its been awhile since I read a few of the reports which I saved as they seemed a real possibility for a successful enclosed at least dust/FA explosive.
Therin lies the problem however these explosions require confinement as one of the 5 legs of a successful dust detonation.fine if your target is a cave or a relatively open building but likely useless out of doors.:(

Suprisingly enough there is also only one type of coal which will detonate. Unfortunately I cannot recall the variety that will detonate under proper conditions or which dust, coal or grain contains the most energy however i do recall that common corn starch IIRC had the most energy upon detonation of the grain dusts.To be honest so much information is contained in the accident reports and investigations they are virtual manuals for construction of a successful device:o
[Edited on 8-3-2009 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 8-3-2009 by grndpndr]
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[*] posted on 8-3-2009 at 22:31


Few particulate fuels can achieve a real detonation (expecially unconfined). A few can but even then, the detonation is fairly weak compared to a decent liquid fuel. A possible exception here is fine Al powder...

It doesn't take much to knock down a building from the inside. Even a whimpy deflagration will do it.

If you want a real FAE, chlorinate some propylene glycol, epoxidize it with NaOH, and presto, ready made FAE fuel..
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