Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2
Author: Subject: Desensitize ETN?
Microtek
National Hazard
****




Posts: 408
Registered: 23-9-2002
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 14-11-2017 at 07:02


Reality check: Thousands of everyday items contain plasticizers from that subset. They are being phased out now (at least in the EU), but they have been in use for decades, and millions of people have been exposed to them every day of their lives without taking exceptional amounts of damage.

The dangers of handling energetic materials in the first place, as well as dealing with the nitrogen oxides are far more serious concerns IMO.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 16-11-2017 at 16:45


Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  
Reality check: Thousands of everyday items contain plasticizers from that subset. They are being phased out now (at least in the EU), but they have been in use for decades, and millions of people have been exposed to them every day of their lives without taking exceptional amounts of damage.

The dangers of handling energetic materials in the first place, as well as dealing with the nitrogen oxides are far more serious concerns IMO.

The problem with Endocrinian Disruptors is that:
1) even minute amounts for short exposure time (a few days) may have severe consequences
2) the effect is not observable immediately onto the exposed subject... but wel once it tries to get childrens/offsprings... or that the offsprings try to multiply...
3) effect is not only onto fertility but also onto brain development
4) here the dosis doesn't make the poison because they mimic hormones... it has an effect or the complete reverse effect depending onto the exposure/concentration and this last may be effective at extremely low concentrations...
5) additivity of various ED as a daily cocktail is completely unpredictable... industrials are playing with the future of mankind and intellect... but also with the future of many animals living into the surrounding...
Through the products we are exposed via cosmetics, plastic tools, plastics containers/cans in contact with food/beverages, food, pesticides, biocides, nanoparticles... everyone of us is exposed to more than 30 to 100 various ED each day...some of those are persistant/remanent and bio-accumulate...




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rocinante
Harmless
*




Posts: 26
Registered: 13-11-2017
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 25-11-2017 at 11:25


Interesting paper about the sensitivity of ETN, melt cast ETN and its perfromance comapred to PETN, mercury fulminate and RDX.

http://www.wydawnictwa.ipo.waw.pl/cejem/vol_14_No_2_Early_Vi...

8027 m/s at their maximum density (1,7), impact sensitivity comparable to PETN in both cases (crystals, melt cast) and friction sensitivity about twice as high as PETN.

What would be the precise detonation pressure? 300 kbar?

[Edited on 25-11-2017 by Rocinante]

[Edited on 25-11-2017 by Rocinante]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 526
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 26-11-2017 at 05:35


When I calculate the detonation pressure (cj pressure) for PETN with the figures you state I get:

Pcj = (1.7)(8.03)²/4 = 27.404 GPa.

When converted to kilobar, I get 273.9.
Pretty close:)
The calculation is not 100% exact though and can be out by 1% or so.




The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Dornier 335A
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 202
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 26-11-2017 at 14:07


That formula underestimates the detonation pressure for many explosives. The exact version is
P = ρ D2/(γ+1)
Where γ usually varies between 2.5 and 3.1. For ETN at 1.7 g/cc, gamma is about 2.7 which gives a detonation pressure of 305 kbar.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 526
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 26-11-2017 at 19:29


I didn't know that I read the equation is only out by a small amount.
I accidentally put 8.03 instead of 8.3 as well for VOD.
What is y for PETN then?

Using 2.7 as y +1, you get 31.65 GPa or 316.5 kbar for PETN .
This sounds closer.



[Edited on 27-11-2017 by greenlight]




The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rocinante
Harmless
*




Posts: 26
Registered: 13-11-2017
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 27-11-2017 at 10:29


Has anyone tried someting more powerful than RDX? I assume that even RDX/ETN can reach ~ 320 kbar and most HMX/binder explosives reach to only about 350 - 360 kbar.

Their report states that RDX is 4× less friction sensitive than ETN recrystalized from EtOH, which is crazy. ETN is only 5× less friction sensitive than MF.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 526
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 27-11-2017 at 20:21


RDX is about 350 kilobar @ density 1.80.
HMX around 390 kilobar @ density 1.89.

The next explosive I think would replace HMX would be HNIW if it was not for synthesis cost problems among other things.
Approximate CJ pressure would be about 527 kilobar @ density 2.44 and massive VOD of 9.38 km/s.




The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rocinante
Harmless
*




Posts: 26
Registered: 13-11-2017
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 28-11-2017 at 01:48


I'm thinking about real world mixtures, not crystal densities. HNIW is about 400 kbar, but it is a dead thing due to PETN-like sensitivity and no fielded, practical co-crystals. I'm thinking about amateur mixtures, like.. has anyone tried keto-RDX/some nitrofurazane//melt cast ETN?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Dornier 335A
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 202
Registered: 10-5-2013
Location: Northern Europe
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 28-11-2017 at 06:34


Even at crystal density (2.04 g/cc), HNIW only reaches about 420 kbar compared to 393 kbar for HMX at crystal density. The effect of switching to HNIW would therefore not be very significant considering the increased amount of inert material required to keep the sensitivity down.

I think I have seen RDX/ETN melt cast on youtube but it should be said that while it performs significantly better than Composition B it doesn't perform better than pure RDX. I get 8590 m/s and 337 kbar at 1.75 g/cc for a 50/50 mixture.
RDX has a very high detonation velocity for its density, so most mixtures perform worse. The only exceptions are mixtures with strong oxidizers like hexanitroethane or bis(2-difluoramino-2,2-dinitroethyl)nitroamine and those are out of reach for most amateurs.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
greenlight
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 526
Registered: 3-11-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: Energetic

[*] posted on 28-11-2017 at 09:29


I see I was wrong with theoretical pressure for HNIW.
I thought it would be higher than just 420 kbar because of it having such high energy and the highest density out of most of the newer HE's.





The only use for an atomic bomb is to keep somebody else from using one.
George Wald
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Rocinante
Harmless
*




Posts: 26
Registered: 13-11-2017
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 28-11-2017 at 10:08


Pressed RDX with 5 % of inerts does something like 310 kbar (some sources claim as low as 280 kbar and I'm aware how hard is to determine the pressure even with exp. methods), if I'm not mistaken, so the 50:50 mixture should be slightly more powerful.

[Edited on 28-11-2017 by Rocinante]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2

  Go To Top