Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: Need help for identification of an energetic composition/substance
sarinox
Harmless
*




Posts: 15
Registered: 21-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-11-2017 at 06:15
Need help for identification of an energetic composition/substance


Dear mads, please have a look at the attached photos, did u see these Chinese made hobby rockets? they are tiny in size(approximately 4 centimeters long) they when I cracked one of them open, I found a white material in it, the material looks like plaster! when it burns it burns quickly, I belive the way it burns is different from the way Nitrocellulose burns.
(I tries to bur a small chunk of it, it is not too sensitive to flame, u have to try a bit to ignite it, but once it ignites it burns very fast! and I can say the residue is fairly small, it can be neglected, I also think when it burns it smells like Nitrated compounds such as nitrocellulose, but it burns differently and its flame is not yellowish like nitrocellulose i could'n recognize it's flame color surely cuz it burns fast)

So, does any of U guys know what it is? or can guess what it is?

and what are your suggestive methods for identifying this compound?

Maybe it is a highly nitrated cellulose, I don't know.

Could it be Nitrostarch? (I have never seen Nitro starch)

photo_2017-11-25_17-33-51.jpg - 48kB photo_2017-11-25_17-33-56.jpg - 42kB photo_2017-11-25_17-34-00.jpg - 49kB

[Edited on 25-11-2017 by sarinox]

[Edited on 25-11-2017 by sarinox]

3.jpg - 57kB2.jpg - 46kBUntitled.jpg - 47kB
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Markovfff
Harmless
*




Posts: 12
Registered: 7-11-2017
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-11-2017 at 08:41


Seems like a some sort of whistle mix. A mix that burns quickly if not compressed. In most cases its a mixture of potasium chlorate with sodium salicylate/benzoate. I remember that in Poland we used to name it SSA powder, I have seen people making huge fireckrackers with it.

[Edited on 25-11-2017 by Markovfff]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
nitro-genes
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 893
Registered: 5-4-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-11-2017 at 12:02


Looks like a purple flame colour from the photos, so a potassium potassium chlorate/perchlorate composition is likely indeed
View user's profile View All Posts By User
sarinox
Harmless
*




Posts: 15
Registered: 21-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-11-2017 at 13:26


Quote: Originally posted by Markovfff  
Seems like a some sort of whistle mix. A mix that burns quickly if not compressed. In most cases its a mixture of potasium chlorate with sodium salicylate/benzoate. I remember that in Poland we used to name it SSA powder, I have seen people making huge fireckrackers with it.

[Edited on 25-11-2017 by Markovfff]


Thanks Markovfff, I will try to study the substance and find out if it contains clorates. Thanks.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
sarinox
Harmless
*




Posts: 15
Registered: 21-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-11-2017 at 13:28


Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
Looks like a purple flame colour from the photos, so a potassium potassium chlorate/perchlorate composition is likely indeed


Thanks nitro-genes, I will try to study the substance and find out if it contains clorates/perchlorates. Thanks.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 2700
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

[*] posted on 25-11-2017 at 21:17


Typically, the Chinese whistling bottle rockets are a phthalate fuel such as Potassium Hydrogen pthalate with Potassium perchlorate as the oxidizer. Minor ingredients might be small quantities of something such as petroleum jelly, a wax or oil to moderate burn speed, render the mix less hygroscopic and thus improve shelf life of the finished rocket engine, and/or catalysts such as Copper chromite, Iron oxides or others to speed decomposition of the perchlorate.



[Edited on 26-11-2017 by Bert]




Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
Thread Moved
25-11-2017 at 21:18
sarinox
Harmless
*




Posts: 15
Registered: 21-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 26-11-2017 at 04:31


Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Typically, the Chinese whistling bottle rockets are a phthalate fuel such as Potassium Hydrogen pthalate with Potassium perchlorate as the oxidizer. Minor ingredients might be small quantities of something such as petroleum jelly, a wax or oil to moderate burn speed, render the mix less hygroscopic and thus improve shelf life of the finished rocket engine, and/or catalysts such as Copper chromite, Iron oxides or others to speed decomposition of the perchlorate.


[Edited on 26-11-2017 by Bert]


Thanks Bert, I was amazed on your detailed response, I have got one question, U might know the answer:

How the composition is prepared? (Potassium Hydrogen pthalate is relatively soluble in water, yet Potassium perchlorate is not! so, what is/are the efficient way of mixing these two substances to get a relatively homogeneous composition?"


[Edited on 26-11-2017 by sarinox]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 2700
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

[*] posted on 26-11-2017 at 07:21


Please take a small bit of your material, perhaps the size of a match head and put it on a steel surface. Hit it with a steel hammer. How hard do you have to hit for it to explode?


Watch this before you decide to make your own whistle mix.



In a Chinese factory, the composition may be wet milled, as you note, the pthalate is water soluble. See the last link. Initially mixed mechanically by a remote mixing machine and probably formed into soft grains for easier mechanical charging with less dust given off, then either gang pressed or semi automatically machine pressed sequentially into tubes for the small device you showed. The Chinese are doing more and more of this work with automated machinery.

You aren't doing that at home. So go here, if you still are interested after finding out how dangerous such mixes are.

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/whistletes...




Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

View user's profile View All Posts By User
sarinox
Harmless
*




Posts: 15
Registered: 21-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 6-3-2018 at 23:57


Nowadays I see another types of chines made firecrackers, they have no markings on them so I have no clue to begin with! they are produced in triangular shape with a fuse for lighting it, the shell of a firecracker is made of paper, the compound which is responsible for its explosion is grayish compound, it seems it is composed of Al or Zn powders I am not sure! does anyone know what is this explosive compound?


Attachment: The_firecracker_itself_1 (92kB)
This file has been downloaded 89 times Attachment: The_explosive_composition (205kB)
This file has been downloaded 90 times Attachment: The_firecracker_itself_2 (79kB)
This file has been downloaded 100 times


[Edited on 7-3-2018 by sarinox]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Herr Haber
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 188
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7-3-2018 at 04:26


Polumna is the easiest firecracker to hand make. Usually the composition is plain and simple flash powder.
There is usually a good amount of it though, dont be deceived by the looks.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
sarinox
Harmless
*




Posts: 15
Registered: 21-4-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-3-2018 at 13:28


Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber  
Polumna is the easiest firecracker to hand make. Usually the composition is plain and simple flash powder.
There is usually a good amount of it though, dont be deceived by the looks.


Thanks, I didn't know about Polumna, but I thought the composition must be a type of flash powder, because it burns bright!
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top