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Author: Subject: Is storing sulfonitric acid (H2SO4/HNO3 mix) safe
Elemental Phosphorus
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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 05:10


Yes, HDPE bottles are safe for storing most acids. They are fine with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid and nitric acid, but glass bottles with Teflon caps or stoppers are really better for storing nitric acid, especially fuming nitric acid, and glass bottles are probably better for sulfuric acid, because some of our members have noticed slow darkening of their sulfuric acid in HDPE bottles. Nothing serious however, especially for nitrations. HDPE bottles are also safe for most oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and hypochlorites. If you're wondering about compatibility, check one of the online compatibility tables, like the Cole-Parmer one:

https://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance

Anyhow, the cap is probably the same plastic as the container. If you're planning to get in to chemistry I highly recommend getting some reagent bottles (glass with glass stoppers) or teflon-capped glass bottles.

I store plenty of stuff in plastic containers because I don't have the money to store everything in glass bottles. Don't let the containers completely obstruct you from doing chemistry, but be safe.

Bottom line: HDPE is for the most part fine, but glass is better.
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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 05:52


Quote: Originally posted by Elemental Phosphorus  
Yes, HDPE bottles are safe for storing most acids. They are fine with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid and nitric acid, but glass bottles with Teflon caps or stoppers are really better for storing nitric acid, especially fuming nitric acid, and glass bottles are probably better for sulfuric acid, because some of our members have noticed slow darkening of their sulfuric acid in HDPE bottles. Nothing serious however, especially for nitrations. HDPE bottles are also safe for most oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and hypochlorites. If you're wondering about compatibility, check one of the online compatibility tables, like the Cole-Parmer one:

https://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance

Anyhow, the cap is probably the same plastic as the container. If you're planning to get in to chemistry I highly recommend getting some reagent bottles (glass with glass stoppers) or teflon-capped glass bottles.

I store plenty of stuff in plastic containers because I don't have the money to store everything in glass bottles. Don't let the containers completely obstruct you from doing chemistry, but be safe.

Bottom line: HDPE is for the most part fine, but glass is better.


Thanks for the reply. I was just trying to test the cap. I made a solution of acetone and water mix with a density of 0.945 SG to throw the cap in (actally submerged it to see if it comes back up) since HDPE has a SG of 0.95 to 0.96. i did do it with volume though and the temperature could have screwed it up since temperature changes density but it seemed to be staying down. The coca-cola bottle cap floated back up though. But its really easy for this test to be completely inaccurate.
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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 05:54


If you are going to put a bottle of acid in your car and drive cross country? They do sell glass bottles with a clear plastic coating in case the glass gets cracked. I had a glass 1000ml bottle of 93% Sulfuric crack and completely empty itself in storage once, that will get your attention- What a mess.

safety plastic coated amber glass reagent bottles

I note that in all industrial mixed acid nitration schemes I have ever seen, the acid is mixed immediately prior to use, just long enough to chill if needed. A mixed acid feed tank in a factory turns over fast, probably daily. Any with actual industrial experience might speak to this.

I will not recommend or approve a process I have never done. And no one else here seems to have held mixed acid for nitration longer than they needed to mix and chill?

Similarly, you never did tell us what plastic your bottle is made of. I assume HDPE, but assumptions can get you killed in this business.

[Edited on 29-11-2017 by Bert]




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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 07:28


I was planning on keeping the bottle in sight during the entire trip (on passanger seat floor) but ive decided dismiss the entire idea. Anyone know of a more effective way to test for HDPE than with density? The difrerent plastic densities are too close to really know according to my findings. My plastics seem do decide when the want to float and when they try to sink.
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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 12:42


This:



Attachment: Plastics identification.pdf (1.4MB)
This file has been downloaded 49 times

files-3.jpg - 11kB




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1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 12:58


If the bottle contained sulfuric acid, it's not going to be made from anything except HDPE, but it's always prudent to check. Had a friend who assumed that some fuel additive bottle was HDPE and put a rather valuable chemical in it that melted the bottle. Even though gasoline would have melted the bottle, the bottle didn't actually contain gasoline.

What explosive were you planning on transporting, and how much? If it's like a gram, and the explosive is something like ETN that won't detonate if you drop it, it might just be safer to bring that.

All this information is really important to know, and the fact that you didn't provide it is why some people were being rude to you. Because if you don't realize that this information is important, then you have no business messing around with explosives, or with nitric acid.





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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 13:52


Sulfonitric acid (aka nitrating acid) is a much stronger oxidizer than nitric acid and more dangerous.

https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/6183/does-a-su...

"NEVER pour sulfonitric acid on organic material as the latter will be oxidized in an explosive way! Every piece of glassware should first:

Be cleaned as much as possible with any solvent or manually removing solid substance which is stuck where it should not be,
Be thoroughly rinced with a solvent miscible with water (acetone, methanol, ethanol...),
Be thoroughly rinced with tap water, in order to eliminate most of any organic solvent,
Only then can you pour the sulfonitric acid onto your glassware and let it do its magick.

Do not think that a plastic which can seemingly resist any solvent will actually resist exposure to sulfonitric acid! PTFE will resist but not common plastic materials."


https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/7195

"Non-combustible, substance itself does not burn but may decompose upon heating to produce corrosive and/or toxic fumes. For UN1796, UN1826, UN2031 at high concentrations and for UN2032, these may act as oxidizers, also consult ERG Guide 140. Vapors may accumulate in confined areas (basement, tanks, hopper/tank cars, etc.). Substance may react with water (some violently), releasing corrosive and/or toxic gases and runoff. Contact with metals may evolve flammable hydrogen gas. Containers may explode when heated or if contaminated with water. (ERG, 2016) "

http://www.aidic.it/cet/14/36/022.pdf

"Nitric acid decomposition in mixed acid (an aqueous mixture of nitric and sulfuric acids) was studied from a chemical and a kinetic point of view. The study was focused on the behavior of the reactive mixture in an open system in which the gas formed through the decomposition process can leave the vessel."

Behold, I have been blessed by the Gods of search.
I. Thou shalt not store nitrating acid.
II. Thou shalt not transport nitrating acid.
III. Thou shalt not pour nitrating acid into drain cleaner bottles.
IV. Thou shalt not pour nitrating acid into plastic-lined glass containers.
V. Thou shalt not prepare nitrating acid without a fume hood.

Any further questions?

[Edited on 29-11-2017 by clearly_not_atara]




[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 14:00


I had assumed that safety-coated glass bottles were only coated on the [I]outside[/I], leaving the inside as regular glass. If that's not correct, I may need to reassess my storage procedures.
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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 14:02


Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
I had assumed that safety-coated glass bottles were only coated on the [I]outside[/I], leaving the inside as regular glass. If that's not correct, I may need to reassess my storage procedures.
If a chemical reacts with a safety coating, is it still an effective safety coating? I think they are coated on the outside, to be fair.

[Edited on 29-11-2017 by clearly_not_atara]




[Edited on 04-20-1969 by clearly_not_atara]
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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 14:46


Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara  
If a chemical reacts with a safety coating, is it still an effective safety coating? I think they are coated on the outside, to be fair.

Time scale is an important factor to consider. I could think of quite a few circumstances where I wouldn't necessarily want a compound being stored long-term in contact with a safety coating. That being said, the coating would be perfectly capable of withstanding the compound for enough time to prevent a spill if the container were to break.

All of the "safety" bottles I've seen were indeed coated on the outside.




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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 22:39


Yeah, read what not-atara wrote. That jogs my memory. At room temperature, this mixture seems innoccuous, but get it even slightly warm, and you have piranha solution on steroids. Explosives would be safer to transport than that mixture in a plastic bottle.



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[*] posted on 29-11-2017 at 23:57


Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
Yeah, read what not-atara wrote. That jogs my memory. At room temperature, this mixture seems innoccuous, but get it even slightly warm, and you have piranha solution on steroids. Explosives would be safer to transport than that mixture in a plastic bottle.
That's exaggerating the risks.
Piranha solution really is much more dangerous. It can violently decompose without apparent provocation, apparently it can even explode. A mix of nitric acid and sulphuric acid is not that unstable. Many people distill nitric acid from mixes of H2SO4 and some nitrate salt. The liquid in the boiling flask contains a strong mix of H2SO4 and HNO3 and this does not explode, even when hot it does not explode, otherwise no one would distill nitric acid again.




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[*] posted on 30-11-2017 at 01:54


Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
If the bottle contained sulfuric acid, it's not going to be made from anything except HDPE, but it's always prudent to check. Had a friend who assumed that some fuel additive bottle was HDPE and put a rather valuable chemical in it that melted the bottle. Even though gasoline would have melted the bottle, the bottle didn't actually contain gasoline.

What explosive were you planning on transporting, and how much? If it's like a gram, and the explosive is something like ETN that won't detonate if you drop it, it might just be safer to bring that.

All this information is really important to know, and the fact that you didn't provide it is why some people were being rude to you. Because if you don't realize that this information is important, then you have no business messing around with explosives, or with nitric acid.



I think my joke about driving with a bomb in the car wasnt really caught by many either. I was planning on making the ETN there. But if chucking the whole plan in the fuck-it bucket.

Maby ill take them some nitrocelluloce and tell them the backstory of the blackpowder to nitrocellulose transition. Maybe even force some in a piece of wood and demonstrate the difrerence between when confined and when not confined.
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[*] posted on 30-11-2017 at 03:34


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
That's exaggerating the risks.
Piranha solution really is much more dangerous. It can violently decompose without apparent provocation, apparently it can even explode. A mix of nitric acid and sulphuric acid is not that unstable. Many people distill nitric acid from mixes of H2SO4 and some nitrate salt. The liquid in the boiling flask contains a strong mix of H2SO4 and HNO3 and this does not explode, even when hot it does not explode, otherwise no one would distill nitric acid again.

Neither piranha solution or nitric/sulfuric acid are explosive initially, and only gain their explosive potential when some organic compound comes into play. With piranha, you'll notice that's already two of the three chemicals that are used to make TATP. I wonder how many piranha-related explosions resulted from accidentally adding acetone?

Sure, piranha can decompose, giving off oxygen, but that usually happens because the heat released from combining H2SO4 and the water (in the H2O2) is enough to heat the peroxide to its decomposition temperature. But the acid actually stabilizes the peroxide once they're thoroughly mixed, so the only added danger comes from the fact that if it erupts all over the place, it's erupting piranha solution.

I've distilled nitric acid from sulfuric acid myself, and have discovered that the process will disintegrate any plastic that's used in the system. Not instantly, but always eventually. Doesn't matter what type of plastic, if it has carbon and hydrogen in it, its days are numbered. Based on that experience, I'd definitely be more comfortable storing piranha in an HDPE bottle temporarily, compared to sulfuric/nitric acid mixture.

I'm wondering now why OP can't bring nitric acid with him and buy a bottle of Rooto from a hardware store on the way though?

[Edited on 11/30/17 by Melgar]




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[*] posted on 30-11-2017 at 05:09


I would but I have never attempted ETN synth with a hitration salt and from what i hear KNO3 makes it quite difficult. and no ammonium nitrate sold anymore since some imbasile tried to blow up a shopping centre with it. He was a farmer and used about 100kg. So they decided to take the 15kg bags off the shelves. Might do that tho. If it fails. It fails
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[*] posted on 30-11-2017 at 05:21


Actually wish i could take a distillation apparatus with. Then I can distill HNO3 from H2SO4 + KNO3, and then make ETN. Maybe even distill a bottle of cheap vodka, to recrystalize the ETN and maybe get someone interested in chemistry. (Not sure if i can use ethanol for recrystalization. Will read up on that one.)
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[*] posted on 30-11-2017 at 09:25


I've made ETN dozens of times, every which way. Hell, I even wrote the first thread on these boards about reliably detonating it via thermal shock, in contact with aluminum foil. That what your plan for it was? ;) The only problem with KNO3 is that there are extra solids mixed in, and it isn't clear what's KHSO4 and what's ETN. The salt increases the viscosity, which is annoying, and the yields are lower. But it's really easy to determine what's what during workup, since ETN is completely insoluble in water and KHSO4 dissolves easily. Though, I was actually suggesting buying sulfuric acid at your destination.

I've found that ammonia works better for neutralization than baking soda (no erupting elementary-school-style volcanoes to deal with), and it's what they use for neutralizing industrial nitrations, since the byproducts are valuable as fertilizer. It works perfectly for ETN, since it's the only insoluble reaction product. The 10% stuff is preferable, but 5% is adequate. It's nice and fast, cheap, and it's already so dilute that the reaction can't really go into thermal runaway, assuming you add the acid to the ammonia solution.

Recrystallization is mostly important if you're going to be storing it long-term, although if there's any chunks of KHSO4 trapped in the ETN, it can also remove those.




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[*] posted on 30-11-2017 at 11:21


Might try to buy some sulfuric acid there. But the destination is between nothing an nothing. But i will see what ill do. Thanks for all the good replies guys. Appreciate.
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[*] posted on 30-11-2017 at 19:52


As i wrote the original reply and you u2u me (sorry i wasnt able to reply, its playing up), I will tell you the concerns i had.
You have been given great information, i am not one the smart people here, i ask questions because of the smart people who are here. But i do know a couple of things that you have to be careful with.

The combination of acids you are talking about form a mixture that is used to nitrate things. often this is simple things like cotton that burns super fast and leaves no trace, the magicians papers thats gone instantly is just nitrated paper. its prepared using the acid combination your talking about.

So when i said bomb in the car i was thinking of what would happen if the bottle breached. Anything organic like carpet etc with even small spills on it, becomes something very different having been nitrated. It becomes very dangerous.

Then you have two strong mineral acids mixed together in a bottle, i have no idea which plastics if any would stand upto a mixture like that for a long period. maybe nothing would happen, but my concern is more in the case of a simple car crash.

Its easy to get into what my friends over the pond call a fender bender, dosnt have to be serious one. just has to be enough to squeeze that bottle so it leaks. Maybe you get a dent in the bumper and nothing else, maybe you miss the fact the bottle has spilled a little acid.

How long before your driving along and bam unconscious at 70mph via fumes? Or a bigger crash and complete breach, i can you in the UK in this situation no one is getting you out the car quickly. They asses the situation ect ect.

Then you have a overlooked problem....... your transporting materials you have no license to transport. I dont think these days it matters what country your in, these chems are transported by special couriers, to use a normal courier is an offense in most places.

Buying the stuff and carrying in a car is one thing, but mixing them together and carrying i would think puts you in a grey area. Bottom line is this.
I am young and very stupid, i do stupid things and i make mistakes alot. But my instinct would stop me doing what you want to do.

When i started trying to learn chemistry, i made some seriously bad mistakes, i had an incredible ability to start or create fireballs from the simplest experiments. So I made a rule, if i had to ask a question involving a dangerous chemical, then i knew whatever i had in mind was likely a bad idea. i made it a rule to ask people (mainly on here) what they thought of the idea.

If they replied as they have to you, then that told me my idea was a bad one. Hang around here long enough and you discover two things, people here love to help youngsters, they have a passion with passing on knowledge. if they can find a way of you doing something dangerous in a safe way, then trust me they will give you the details.

Equally, the moment these guys tell you your idea is a non starter, LISTEN, except your idea is likely to end badly.
Read some the threads where people havnt heeded the advice, some really talented youngsters like us, ended up with very short careers in chemistry or anything else.
Most the old guys here have made most the mistakes for us, we have an advantage, we dont have to experience some the horrors they have, all we got to do is listen and learn.

One last word.........
Killing or maiming yourself in my opinion is perfectly ok, potentially putting others at risk is unacceptable, what you plan to do could put others at risk, so for that reason alone i personally think you have no right to do it. Your moral compass may vary.
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[*] posted on 23-12-2017 at 04:01


store them separately in PTFE,HDPE whatever plastic bottle is suitable till you get there and then mix them together when you are there.
this is like mixing liquid hydrogen and oxygen and storing it in a tank that is literally ready to explode.
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[*] posted on 28-12-2017 at 06:56


I have half liter mixed acid stored. First it was in a cheap, quite thin PE bottle. After a year or so it became ever more porose. The PE started cracking when pushing on it. So I decided to decant into a better container. Unfortuately I placed the bottle in the kitchen, ready to decant in the next few days. Some nitrating acid leaked at that time through the porose PE and ruined a few cm3 of the kitchenette surface (now red).

Anyway 50ml on a 1000km trip in the car, chances something serious happening are quite limited. Make sure it's tightly closed and standing steady.
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